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KRS -- don't discard MSTS anytime soon


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#1 wmghobbs

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Posted 17 November 2007 - 05:37 PM

I went ahead and bought the European version of KRS to learn about how steam is set up in the new sim. While I like the appearance and sounds of the new sim, developing routes and equipment for it will be difficult. As of now the available documentation is even less than that for MSTS and no one has a knowledge base to work from. And things like the sound are much higher tech and will be more difficult to work with. I would estimate that it will be at least a year before anything other than trial efforts will be available -- probably longer for first class routes.

I am keeping MSTS and Andre's route active. What matters to me more than the high-tech whiz-bang stuff is whether or not the route and equipmnt as a whole are appealing.

I had to upgrade my video card and power supply for the new sim and now wish I had done so long ago. I doubled the frame rates on MSTS with the new card and also eliminated the heating problem I had been having when running the sim for long periods.

Bill Hobbs

#2 batt

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Posted 18 November 2007 - 11:01 AM

Thanks for the commentary, Bill. Both KRS and MSTS2 face the challenge of content. unsure.gif Likely, it will be a very long time (years) before they can reach the level of the current sim in that regard. Be that as it may, I plan on running my ten-wheelers over the StLNA and cabforwards/F-7s over Donner for a long time to come. smile.gif

#3 Genma Saotome

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Posted 18 November 2007 - 12:32 PM

I always figured one of the problems that would become evident w/ a new similator is there will be a substantial reduction in the number of people will have the artistic skill to stand up to what the new sim can show. But I think it also means people will accept the challenge and become better. It'll take time tho.

The other thing about starting in on KRS is just that: starting. Everything is back at the starting line again... nothing is directly backwards compatible. In some cases that is good but in others it's a real loss. We're back to typing every value on every line of the .wag and .eng files... trying to understand the physics... etc. etc.

IMO there is no good reason for the accumulated knowledge that's been built up over time in our .wag and .eng files to be tossed out. Isn't Max_Boiler_Pressure going to mean the same thing no matter who wrote the sim... or how they named the parameter? For headlights to do the same thing?

It remains an irritant to me that the software guys seem to be too uncomfortable with the idea of opening up certain areas for community management (i.e., open source). Perhaps RSDL, under the onslaught, will free up more of the innards, but I have this feeling that having had their head handed back to them for working so hard to produce something with so many gaps .... they'll be working so hard to produce something... and never stop to think of what they're good at and what we're good at. It is complementary.

#4 old_codger

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Posted 18 November 2007 - 01:17 PM

When you think about, RS really only has about a year of shelf life before MSTS2 hits the market and from the recent pictures Marc posted of MSTS2, it blows RS out of the water.

#5 wmghobbs

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Posted 18 November 2007 - 02:34 PM

For those of us into period modeling, it remains to be seen what MSTSII will offer. So far, it appears to be all modern stuff.
I managed last night to get a look at the steam loco variables for KRS. Hum, they look awfully familiar. But how to set them? I have started testing a few things on existing equipment and am working up a list of things that appear to be good and those that seem to be wrong. I am by no means anti-KRS. I wnet through a lot of hoops to get my hands on the software (had to enroll my son who is living in London to buy it, for instance). I am trying to find out what it will mean for my enjoyment in the hobby, which is mainly in getting steam locos to run right and then running them.
My warnings about time frames above are based on the difficulty we face in getting enough info to do much of anything. The US version is not due out until Jan -- another triumph for the legal department which probably gets paid by either the word or the hour.
As far as I am concerned, the original MSTS is still enjoyable and the fact taht it might not be state of the art is certainly less important than the fact that I have a number of very good routes, locos, and equipment that are more than adequate for my entertainment.
In the meanwhile, experimentation goes on....

Bill Hobbs


#6 pentium5

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Posted 18 November 2007 - 02:41 PM

I see no reason in creating add-ons for a game that has many similarities as MSTS, but has no drastic change of effects. MSTS2 seems to have much more of what the people want. For example: KRS has trains that move, but no up and down, side to side motion, only translational motion. MSTS2 in one of tdragger's posts seems to have that effect allready paved. In my opinion KRS seems to be dead, in a casket, and allready buried. MSTS 2 is what you really want, so don't waste your time on KRS.

#7 Genma Saotome

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Posted 18 November 2007 - 06:46 PM

QUOTE
and from the recent pictures Marc posted of MSTS2, it blows RS out of the water.


Yeah, the pictures look pretty darn good. But a sim isn't a still life and pretty pictures alone won't make it worth much of anything.

I'm sure if you asked 100 simmers what are the critical features they want in a sim, you'd have 300-500 different answers. biggrin.gif So for the software guys doing the design, it has to be a major challenge figuring out what to do and what to leave out.

But then, the task list is so large because they (any vendor, so far) seem to be keen on re-inventing the wheel each time. Is that the way it's always going to be or will one of these products have enough legs in it to get a second, backward compatible version? I dunno.

What I do know is that were I to invest my time in physical model railroading I'd be working w/ standards that have longevity. I might not want to buy that HO Scale Athearn boxcar made from 45 year old tooling... but if I did, there's a fair chance that 45 years from now, it'd be able to roll down new purchased track, no matter how ugly it looks. That hobby has legs because there are certain standards in place that allow reuse from one product era to the next, giving each consumer a rolling upgrade to ever more modern quality.

For VR, so far we have no standards, nor any indication that any might be developed. Everything, good, bad, inbetween, has to be replaced. Sure, some folks will be able to salvage cad files and re-export them into new formats... generally a good thing... but that addresses only their static appearance -- the inanimate screenshot. It does nothing to address the motion of an object thru space, presented on your screen, in a manner that resembles railroading. All of that .wag, .eng., con data is lost with each new sim product. At least until some individual takes the time to write a gift (or payware) conversion tool.

What this means is so long as the products return us to the starting line, the start has to be slow, has to be frustrating, has to be lost time for payware, and has to beg the question of will that newly announced product from XYZ games deal with this mess?

Isn't crazy doing the same thing over and over again while counting on the results to be different? That's what we have today. Well, it's going to take somebody w/ some nerve to architect a solution that lets go of control over every facet of the product... that leaves to us those portions where our own knowledge and interest is strong -- the railroad portion, and keeps for themselves the computer technology half. And to do so in a manner that other vendors products can use. IOW competition at the computer level, not locomotive power curves. I don't expect to see that anytime soon tho.

#8 Eaglefan9727

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Posted 18 November 2007 - 09:44 PM

QUOTE(old_codger @ Nov 18 2007, 11:58 AM) View Post

When you think about, RS really only has about a year of shelf life before MSTS2 hits the market and from the recent pictures Marc posted of MSTS2, it blows RS out of the water.


While I agree to some degree with your statement on the shots of MSTS 2 that Marc posted being better than RS. A screenshot really cant tell you "How good" the sim will be when released as I always believe that a screenshot can be deceiving at times no matter if it is the original MSTS sim or any other game like a racing sim or something else of that nature.

Of course, I am crossing my fingers that the screenshots that Rick posted of MSTS 2 will be that good when the sim comes out as everything I have heard about the KRS sim so far really hasnt turned me on to that sim personally. Does that mean that I wont get the RS sim at some point in the future? Probably not, I will probably get it at some point. Ill most likely just get it from ebay as I believe within the first month of the NA release. There will be a good amount of cheap copies of RS available instead of spending $40 on the sim.

I guess we will have to wait and see for this to play out for the MSTS 2 program. All I know is that I will be getting the MSTS 2 sim when released no matter how much it is sold at retail stores as I am more interested in the MSTS 2 program than the KRS sim.


#9 august1929

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Posted 18 November 2007 - 10:27 PM

QUOTE
In my opinion KRS seems to be dead, in a casket, and allready buried. MSTS 2 is what you really want, so don't waste your time on KRS.


To paraphrase Mark Twain - "Reports of KRS death are greatly exaggerated".

I think it is not quite dead yet - I certainly wouldn't put on the funeral garb cool.gif .

Like Dave suggests, there are different needs for different folks, but the one advantage KRS has at the moment is that it is available, MSTS2 isn't (may be a relatively short lived advantage laugh.gif , but there again, maybe not rolleyes.gif ).

I have said elsewhare, but it bears repeating, leaving aside Trainz, I now have 2 rail sims that I enjoy using, both for different reasons. Both have their considerable advantages and disadvantages. For me, MSTS's biggest down is that even with a good computer, on a realistically detailed route the framerates are still relatively poor - the opposite is the case with KRS. The current down with KRS though is the lack of US content, but that will change come January (just hope I don't have to buy another copy of the sim from the US to get it wacko.gif ).

Rod

#10 Genma Saotome

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Posted 18 November 2007 - 10:46 PM

> ...the lack of US content, but that will change come January ....
Last I heard was they're replacing just one of the European routes w/ one for North America, probably from from 3dtrainstuff.

#11 Bananarama

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Posted 18 November 2007 - 11:07 PM

Only part of the Cajon work comes from 3DTS (DEM, initial track laying, and the modern UP loco). Everything else, IIRC, was done either in-house or by another 3rd-party European outfit (Trainzoo perhaps?).

The problem I have with RS is in the editing, and is nothing more than a sandbox in its current state. I like the sim, but whomever designed the editing utilities didn't plan things too well. When I want to create for MSTS (or even Trainz), all that's needed is to export the models, create a few config files, and then view in the sim. Viola! What could be easier? (At least to me anyway.)

RS has it completely screwed up. You have to export to a predefined "Source" folder, and then export/convert all files again to be able to use it in RS. If things don't work quite right, then it's a pain to find where the problem lies. That's just dumb.

Cheers!
Marc

#12 decapod

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Posted 19 November 2007 - 01:37 AM

To get up to speed with TS2 - just spend the next year learning FSX.

It will be very similar.

#13 august1929

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Posted 19 November 2007 - 07:13 AM

QUOTE
Last I heard was they're replacing just one of the European routes w/ one for North America


Well, that is one more than of now rolleyes.gif

I will be totally honest and say that the long term shortage of different engines and rolling stock will seriously compromise any equally long term enjoyment of the sim - with all my mini train sim installations I have a very large quantity of quality engines to run - would not want to be restricted to only one or two. If KRS or MSTS2 is too difficult to produce a variety of engines, stock or routes for, then it, or they, will not flourish - they won't die (RS is visually too good for thar), but they simply won't thrive.

Anyway, all this is conjecture - lets wait a year and see what gives then - in the meantime I am off to play trains...now, where is my Trainz disc

Rod

#14 TheGrindre

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Posted 21 November 2007 - 03:43 AM

I also understand that RS is going to make everyone submit all assets/content you create to them FIRST for approval. Which can mean, if somebody is in front of you with the same item, you could loose out.
A $2,000 fee is also being discussed if you happen to be a creator.
I understand they are looking for, and want to obtain, ALL rights to everything no matter what. (I believe EA has something to do with this.)

I'm not buying this game, I'm waiting till MSTS2 hits the market before I make any real decisions.

Meanwhile, it's Trainz for me.

Cheers everyone.

#15 august1929

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Posted 21 November 2007 - 07:22 AM

QUOTE
I also understand that RS is going to make everyone submit all assets/content you create to them FIRST for approval. Which can mean, if somebody is in front of you with the same item, you could loose out.
A $2,000 fee is also being discussed if you happen to be a creator.
I understand they are looking for, and want to obtain, ALL rights to everything no matter what. (I believe EA has something to do with this.)


Nope - Unfortunately bad news travels fast, even when it isn't correct dry.gif .

Rod



#16 sniper297

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Posted 27 November 2007 - 07:49 AM

Funny thing, I heard exactly that about Trainz, that they required official approval for freeware addons, and furthermore restricted uploads and downloads to their own website. Don't know if that's true, train-sim file library has a few Trainz downloads, but KRS has no restrictions on freeware.

http://uktrainsim.co...f6dd825ba678561

BTW, route editor for KRS is as easy as falling off a yard ladder! cool.gif

#17 AZ Rail Rat

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Posted 27 November 2007 - 11:40 AM

Yep, Sniper has jumped into RS like a starving pig goes for the Gut Wagon (pardon my Okie metaphor). I've seen shots of his PO&N. He is OBVIOUSLY HAVING A BLAST!!!! Work accomplished so far proves what he says about easy of use.

I don't think we need to worry about either sim. There will be the REAL artists like Sniper who will pour out more content (free and pay) than most of us will be able to consume in several lifetimes.

Wonder what Rich Garber and Jim Ward have going? dry.gif

#18 moose49

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Posted 27 November 2007 - 01:42 PM

QUOTE(AZ Rail Rat @ Nov 27 2007, 12:21 PM) View Post

Yep, Sniper has jumped into RS like a starving pig goes for the Gut Wagon (pardon my Okie metaphor). I've seen shots of his PO&N. He is OBVIOUSLY HAVING A BLAST!!!! Work accomplished so far proves what he says about easy of use.

I don't think we need to worry about either sim. There will be the REAL artists like Sniper who will pour out more content (free and pay) than most of us will be able to consume in several lifetimes.

Wonder what Rich Garber and Jim Ward have going? dry.gif



sniper=jim ward blink.gif

#19 ricksan

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Posted 28 November 2007 - 10:25 AM

QUOTE
There will be the REAL artists...who will pour out more content (free and pay)

Content for RS? Don't count on it.

#20 moose49

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Posted 28 November 2007 - 10:44 AM

QUOTE(ricksan @ Nov 28 2007, 11:06 AM) View Post

Content for RS? Don't count on it.



Counting on you and Marc, Scott, Andy, and others for MSTS-2 content thou.