All:

Marc has an interesting poll taking place in the General Forum regarding his upcoming Mountain Sub. I found the consumer input to date intriguing.

It makes me wonder what you, as a sim enthusiast, would like to see in future routes? What types of operations do you like best? What types of terrain? Era? Etc?

Any input would be much appreciated, and perhaps could be idea fodder to other commercial developers.

Who's first?

Andre

I would like to see more Arkansas routes, especially mine (not to brag) I will take alot of shots and post them on here, we have everything you need for a perfect route, cotton, corn, and alot of trains 250 miles worth, I am gonna build it when TMTS comes out, i may go payware (It is really that good) but that is far in the future.

But, i like flat land but i love long heavy trains and them grades in the flat lands that can sneak up on ya, and i love the small details, mailboxes, stop signs, anything to bring the game more to life. I love the modern era, but i love Frisco so i guess anything frisco or BN or ATSF

But my 2 cents

Thanks,
Jonathan

Andre, I would have to op for the late 50's when a mix of steam and diesel power could be seen. Mountins of course and coal. Also short lines like the Cumberland and Penn., Ma&Pa, West Virginia Northern, and the BC&G. The Virginian out of Mullens W.Va eastbound would be neat with heavy electric, steam, and diesel all using the same set of tracks. Just think what one of there 2-10-10-2's would look like in MSTS. That would be something for the DLW to sink it's teeth into.

I would like to see some NE action.I think a "Birth of Conrail" route in NJ,Pa,etc would be really interesting.I mean the beginning of CR.Maybe 76 to 80.Or the NYSW from Secaucus to Warwick(or beyond) circa late 80's to early 90's.

I do prefer 1 & 2 gen diesels and late steam. For a route I would like it set around the 60 or 70ies, preferably with "timeless" structures, so both a steamer and a 2. gen diesel doesn't look to much out of place. I'm wondering if that could be achieved by using mostly "timeless" structures and then having a few stuctures where you could switch between modern and older type by copying shapes, like cars and some buildings in between, changing the over all feel of the area. Most of us doesn't know the area most routes covers in detail anyway, so alittle sacrifice in how prototypical a route is, to gain some versatility is what I would like most.

Just my 0,02$

Cheers
Peter

I am going to have to agree with David (Boundy) as to what I would like to see.

I especially like eastern short lines, especially in the mountains, or even the types of grades that the Ma&Pa faced with just the rolling countryside north of Baltimore. But to me, there is nothing better than a small to mid sized railroad doing battle with nature as it works to bring some sort of mineral cargo out of the hills to market.

There is also Interurbans like that Hagerstown and Frederick that faced the rolling country that made up the valleys east of the Catoctain mountains and faced the mountains as well while trying to haul both passengers and freight under wire.

Hi Andre,

I prefer the Transition Era myself, a good mix of heavy steam and first generation diesels. I also agree with David and Paul, they both express my preferences perfectly regarding eastern coal hauling roads so I'm not going to add anything more. But the granger roads have been seriously neglected so far. The M&STL, CGW, SOO, MILW, Omaha, etc. would all make a great route. I would prefer the M&STL because of the 10 different paint schemes they had for their 35 RS1’s.

Jack

Hi all!

At first I must congratulate Marc for his great idea! It`ll shorten us a bit the time until
the LNE (I am still hoping) finally will come.

Like my precedessors I would prefer a route in the transition era from Steam to Diesel.
Many switchers like RS/S or EMD`s should be there, some GP7 or 9, and some F-Units.

The terrain should be mountainous. A bit like the WVN of digital Rails which is anounced since two years or like the great A&O of Andre...
Mountains, valleys, forests and a couple of rivers would be fine!

Best regards from Germany,

Christian

P.S: Has Marcs project an own website?

Andre, my response isn't going to help you much - I don't have the knowledge of the US rail network that all the guys above have, but as to type of route and operations I can add something...

I personally like a route where there is some main line running (both single and multiple track), with plenty of switching opportunities along the way - not just at each end.

A route with branches or industries off route that provide for interesting work and a bit of "mystery" as far as the route is concerned - i.e. giving the "player" good reason to explore and find out what is around the next bend.

Plenty of scenery, but a mix of close wood, hills (maybe not mountains) and open farmland. Rivers crossing under the track in a number of places giving plenty of photo ops.

All in all a route that has a sense of needing to exist for itself, not just as part of a larger entity that hasn't or can't be modelled - i.e. self contained, but with reason to look to the outside world.

Sounds a bit like the A&O, but more so, with a bit more main line. BTW, those proper branches are important - nothing worse than having a mass of lines going a scale mile off the main then coming to a dead end.

Era - transition is good, as it gives everyone something (thinking of maximising your sales here Andre ).

What you need to work out from this is;

Do the numbers of young enthusiasts naturally interested in more modern routes outnumber the older die hards with the cash in their pockets

Whatever it is, you will have one certain customer here.

Rod

Thanks to all for your input thus far.


Seems like a couple generalizations can be made from the above comments:

* Those responding seem to like routes set in mountains best.

* 1st gen diesels and even transistion steam is favored.


Also curious about what you PREFER in regards to theme approach:

* Strict prototype (Sincere attempt at prototype accuracy)

* Loose Prototype (Less sincere attempt at prototype accuracy)

* Proto-lanced (A fictional theme overlayed onto a prototype basis. Example: A&O Sub)

* Freelanced (pure fiction, ala fictional route and fictional equipment. Example: Ohio Rail)


Preference aside, of the above four classes, what would you ACCEPT in a well done route?


I was surprised that most still have a thirst for more mountains, though they have been done quite often.

In fact, at one point in the distant past, I considered a prototype granger road (i.e. a route across the flatlands that serves the grain industry), the Rock Island. First segment would have been about 50 miles long. There would have been a goodly amount of local work to do (towns w/switching every 4-5 miles), a nice sized yard and semi-city w/industry, all on a gentle topography profile. Onto this would have been tatty and new Classic Era diesels running at 50 MPH speeds on signaled, single track mainline. However, after reading comments at the time about wanting curves and mountains, I quietly put that idea to rest.

Plus, more recently, after watching the flak MLT (and others) took at various forums over perceived inaccuracies on their latest prototype attempts, such caused me to have serious doubts at my ideas of replicating prototypes.

Ah, the challenge of understanding the consumer!

Edit - Rod: Didn't see your post until after this post was placed. However, I see your sentiments tend to fall in place with the above.

Andre Ming

Hi again Andre,

What I prefer: Strict prototype if I know a lot about the road because then I would be able to recognize the area the road was running through. But if I have no prior knowledge about the road then all can apply because I have no clue about road and you would be able pass anything by me. Also I prefer short to medium length main line running with a lot of switching, to much main line running and I tend to lose interest fast. I thirst for more mountain routes myself because none of the payware routes match what I am looking for. All are set past my preferred era and most involve long mainline running that puts me to sleep. If I were given the choice though I would take a granger route over a mountain route any day.

Jack

Andre,

My personal preference would be either a loose Prototype or else protolanced as you call it, or even Freelanced so that you start with prototype scenery


and then you add the necessary details to bring it to life


(OH, and watch where you are going too, saves ware and tare on the engines and cars - scenery too), and then you refine the detail


and the result gives you something that you can run as a freelanced railroad like this,


or even run as your favorite prototype, whichever you happen to be in the mood for at the time.



And yes Andre, those of us with mountains in our blood, if we live where it is flat as a pancake, like down here in Florida, our mountain routes are the only way we can return to our roots conveniently.

Hi 'ya Jack! Nice chatting with you again. You done said:

"What I prefer: Strict prototype if I know a lot about the road because then I would be able to recognize the area the road was running through."

Ah, and therein is one of the rubs with trying to faithfully pursue a prototype: SOMEONE will be very intimate with the target route/locale.

Example: That granger road I mentioned? I would have had to make a field trip to the area and spend a couple days documenting the area so I could better reflect it in RE. Even though it was here in my home state of Oklahoma, that was going to take time and money that I really couldn't afford at the time. Even though it is not one of the more popular lines... it likely would have been in SOMEONE'S back yard and taken me to task for not having handled it well.

In all candor, this is another reason that both the CM and LNE have been iced for now: I just simply cannot know the area intimately enough to do a creditible job of replicating either. Making a week long trip to either location is out of question for now.

"I thirst for more mountain routes myself because none of the payware routes match what I am looking for. All are set past my preferred era..."

For those of us that prefer to use photo textures, it is very difficult to come up with the textures one needs to create the equipment, to say nothing of long gone structures.

"...and most involve long mainline running that puts me to sleep."

With you there! The only way long mainline running becomes acceptable to me is for there to be good AI challenges along the way.

FWIW, below you will find a repost of a pic or two of some of the track work on that granger road.

Edit - Paul: You too, slipped in under the radar! Nice pics. Your route is coming along well. What area is that? Did you overlay your PN over a prototype?

Andre

I guess I would prefer proto-lanced or fictional. I play with trains to have fun and relax so I don't "count rivets." I also would like to see (and if I had the ability, I would do" a flat-land route with heavy grain and coal traffic plus local freight switching. I like switching activities over main-line running. The switching gives me a feeling that I have actually done something, I guess.

I'd love to see the Milwaukee or CB&Q in Iowa done up in a route.

Wow. This has generated a lot of quick responses. I feel like I'm a day late already (I'm pretty used to that, though ).

I prefer a loose prototype, and am not philosophically against protolanced routes. I know there are the rivet counters out there who will gripe about the details (I had one guy complain because a specific tree wasn't included), but I do like a route that lets me feel as though I'm experiencing what the old timers experienced. I like routes where I can go to a real-world map and say, Oh! That's where that is! Adding the right mix of industries really brings a location (and a route) alive, and fits well with one of the real reasons I greatly enjoy the virtual railroading - it brings history alive. I get some of that feel when I ride the real rails - the tracks are through the historic center of town, and you can really see much more clearly how the railroad influenced a town's growth (and vice versa).

I like the transition era as well, and not just because you have a ton of flexibility in terms of diesel vs. steam. There's also a much greater level of passenger traffic, and you're not confined to either intermodal or unit coal and grain trains. I know - the manifest freights are still out there, but there's not nearly the variety there used to be. Not only in terms of loads, but also in terms of railroads represented. I love all those paint schemes and reporting marks!

As to location - I agree with the general interest in mountain railroading, but I'd like to see one of the more famous routes of the east. Riding into Pittsburgh from Baltimore or DC or going over the famous Pennsy routes seem to offer a lot of possibilities, and I'm amazed that we don't have several routes in that region. It doesn't have to be long, but it would be nice to open the throttle from time to time and let 'er fly!

Youll have to include me in the Mountain catigory. And again 1st generation equipment is high on my list, but then again so is early second generation, so the 70s seem to be the best of both worlds. I like the challenges of single track mains with helpers, stiff grades and online switching. The whine of turbochargers and the chant of 567s in the hils is music to the ears. a Route the i likw the seems to have little of everything is the Shasta Route. If done from redbluff to K-Falls, you have single trak mains, lots of traffic, a helper district, plenty of small lumber mill towns with switching, interchange with a logging railroad(McCloud River Railroad) local switchers out or Redding, high speed tracks south of redding for those that love stretching thier legs with a pig train, and mixed in are 4 and 6 axle 2nd gen power and 4 and 6 axle 1st gen power. as late as the mid 80s, SP was still running a redding turn from roseville with solid sets of GP-9s and SD-9s that screamed up the valley. GP local switchers, SD tunnel motors or SD-9 helpers out f Dunsmuir. The big Valley, Sac river canyon and tall timber, and the majestic 14,000 foot Mt shasta. a happy little setting.

OK i ran on a bit.

Andre:

'Guess I'm the odd man out.

I love what you did with the NA, and was intrigued with the idea of the CM. If it is later than WWI, I tend to lose interest. Most of that is structure related - I prefer victorian architecture. The NA's backwoods, rural feel was also a winner.

One advantage you have with early prototype is that the tree counters don't have a recollection. This is what you "got away with" on the NA. Living memory is gone. I would guess that you'd be better off with proto-lanced with the later eras that folks are mentioning. Every town is somebody's hometown, and you'd be bound to cross wires if you didn't get it just right.

I love the brainstorm!

Andre,

I will not take credit for something I didn't do. The land forms and track layout are the Clinch Valley route and the first shot, and the second, were ones taken during a reforestation program. While I felt the route was top notch, and the Scalerail add-on from Marc put it over the top for a freeware route, I did not like the original trees used at all. Hence the removal of the old and adding of the new to give the results in the other shots.

The last shot was on the Pocahontas Route and it is one route that meets rather well Rod's comments about being able to explore different branches, like the A&O has, but ones that meander off in one direction or another for miles, and miles, coming upon all sorts of surprises and exquisite details. They are all rather faithful to the real Pocahontas, but modeler's license appears to have been taken in a few places, but nothing that distracts from the overall effect, unless you are a dimple on a rivet counter.

Paul

I'm late to the party as usual since I cannot post from the office (regulatory issues involved). In evaluating the routes I've tried in the past couple of years, my favorites are the StL&NA, the Hisatsu, and the D&S. All share the feature of having relatively short mainlines and enough switching to keep me busy. I get bored with too long mainline runs, but enjoy picking up and setting out cars.
I am also fond of TOC steam era equipment with small locos. As a modeler, I figured out that one does not need long trains to get the feel of running a train. Short trains are just fine. But era is not that important since one can run any kind of train they like on a route. TOC equipment survived until the end of steam on isolated lines.

Bill Hobbs

Being a native Kansan, I would love to see more routes based out here in the great plains. Californian routes are getting boring fast.

I prefer those semi-accurate "loose-prototypical" routes over the super duper 100%, frame rate hogging, monsters of routes that just go overboard in the detail department imho. But at the same time I tend to dislike those routes will too little of detail that you run a few miles, get bored, and go onto something else. So something in the middle is what I like I guess. A good route that fills this criteria imho would be the Whitefish series...yes they have a few things unprototypical with them...but overall its one of the best freeware routes out there for me at least.

If only people (mainly on that other forum) would just enjoy things no matter how right or wrong they are, the community would be a much more enjoyable place to be...when it comes down to it, its just a GAME!

Just my 2 cents.

PS...that granger road you were talking about would still be a perfect great plains route...not matter how accurate or unaccurate it would be

I am thoroughly enjoying reading all of your input. Thanks so much for taking the time to articulate your thoughts.

One of the greatest challenges any commercial route developer faces is creating content that is appealing. (Hence will sell well.)

In the past, with my StLNA idea, I thought I'd take a chance and offer something entirely different than was/is commonly available.

At first, I was pretty much underwhelmed by the sales the StLNA was posting. However, it just keeps on selling. Not impressive numbers, mind you, but it does just trickle along. (I'm sure that my meager sales numbers are no where near the numbers of a heavy hitting route such as Cascades, or Tehachapi, and such like.)

Still, I think I have some ideas as to why the little StLNA continues to sell. Though I may not be correct, I think they are:

* Some of the A&O customers that like the A&O decide to take a chance on the StLNA.

* Some purchases were by those growing a bit bored with the typical "modern rails in the mountains" and thought "why not try something different"?

* The Jon Davis' NA pack.

The A&O Sub was motivated by the need to create content that was suitably different than the StLNA. By being able to at least use the basic "core" of the StLNA, this helped me generate income many, many months earlier (which was sorely needed at the time) than creating another route from the ground up. The A&O matched the StLNA numbers in half the time it took for the StLNA. However, now both routes sell about the same and have roughly the same amount of sales.

My present "route project" picture is very, very foggy. At this point in time I simply do not know what direction our lives are going to take. Of course, not only does such uncertainty have an impact on what I can do with VSC presently, but if the changes take place that MAY take place, it will dramatically affect what I can do with VSC in the future also. This will only be known in time.

IF I felt the freedom to renew (or start) another route project, I honestly don't know what I'd be inclined to pursue. My concerns about trying to replicate long-gone prototypes that are 1000's of miles away is still a very real concern. (i.e. the CM and LNE.)

A short switching route could be a possibility, but I'm struggling determining what would comprise sufficient "play value" in comparison to pricing. Plus, though a switching route can keep me entertained personally for periods of time, I can't help but feel that many purchasers would feel "taken". This feeling alone is enough to cause me to have a tendency to shy away from such an endeavor.

On the other hand, I still like doing something different. (To wit: A 1900's Ozarks route. A 1980's Alco powered shortline based on a defunct prototype... that sort of thing.)

That "chart new waters" part of me wouldn't mind taking a theme not done, and create a route that offers something different yet again. When I conceived the the LNE, no one had released a route in the 50s. Well, now that's been done with Donner... so there's not a new sea to chart in that realm.

Wouldn't mind doing that granger road I mentioned. I saw it in action back in the mid 80's, and even at that late date, there was a very nice "atmosphere" to it. (The yard and engine scene at Enid, OK was ver "railroady". )

I thought it would be nice to back date it to its Rock Island days of the early 70's. It then it gets REAL interesting in both power and equipment along with operations. Downside to a granger is the long tangents. I had ideas on how to counteract that, and am still curious to see if I could pull it off... but perhaps now I'll never know?

Ah well... we continue to discuss and learn!

BTW, Austin: What part of the Sunflower State do you live in? (IF you're still there, that is.) How close are you to Caldwell, KS? FWIW, below you'll find another pic of that granger road I reference... this one of the track at Caldwell.

Andre...I'm up on the turnpike in Emporia. Caldwell is about 2 hours southwest from here. It's quite amazing what that old Rock Island line has become now. They are sticking in new rail and ties and really upgrading the trackwork in general for what UP is saying is going to be a dramatic increase in traffic. Last week I saw a couple of those new SD70ACe's sitting in the yard at Wichita getting ready to head south on a FTW bound manifest. Sadly I never got to see what the line was like in the good ol' days, first memories of the old OKT line I have are of chasing the UP E9s and a Operation Lifesaver train back in the early 90s.

I've tossed around doing the modern day version of the Enid Sub as it is named today but its been shoved to the back while I'm doing this KCS thing that'll eventually be finished. Seeing the route as it was in the good days would be great!

Enid itself would be one heck of a switching terminal with all the grain industries there...along with dodging the mainline trains off the Rock, Frisco/BN, and ATSF.

"Enid itself would be one heck of a switching terminal with all the grain industries there..."

Lands sakes, you can say that again!

I mocked up some stuff on that route to see what type of visual impact those sprawling grain elevators would have. Impressive stuff. I'll post a couple of slob shots I have on hand to illustrate what I'm talking about...

Here's the same area looking west. Bear in mind the grain elevators in the pictures are only place holders... the models depicting the prototypes would be much larger. Oh, and there would have been more of them in that scene as well!

Also, there would be oil refining in the area and lots of tanker traffic moving over the line.

It could have been cool route.

Andre

Hi Andre!

Rock Island sounds interesting as I like its locos Paint-shemes.
Especially the black-red-white and the red-white one.
Single-Track-operations would be fine and the seventies ok :-)
Could you paste somer more Info about it?
More Screenies of the Rock?
Best regards,

Christian

Aristo`s RS3

And USA-Trains GP7

Hi Christian:

First I want to tell you that I very much appreciate your support and encouragement.

Remember that at this point in my life, I am in somewhat of a "holding pattern" in regards to tackling a significant VSC project.

Guess this would be a good time to make sure I'm clear on one thing: I do not want any of you to think I'm "dangling carrots" in front of you. ("Dangling carrots" = placing teaser shots with the hope of creating product interest.)

My reason for this thread was to just hear your ideas, and perhaps inject my own philosophies along the way. (And I'm enjoying these aspects of it quite a bit!)

As mentioned earlier, any route project for me at this point is not truly practical. (I have had about 1-2 actual "days off" since sometime in April.)

The Rock Island was considered waaay back prior to the LNE. One of the main reasons I discarded it at the time was because of concerns about its granger theme (which means it doesn't have mountains). Seems there is still quite a demand for more mountains at this point.

Plus, had I decided to tackle it, there would not have been engines in the early Rock Island paint scheme you pictured above. That paint scheme was pretty much gone by the mid 60's. Instead, there would have been a lot of maroon, maroon and yellow, and hopefully some red and yellow paint schemes. (With variations, of course.)

However, all is on hold right now... I wait with bated breath to see what I'll be doing!

Andre

Hi Andre!

Don`t worry that I am thinking that you are an danfling carot. I can understand your situation very well as myself I am involved by the time in builing an German narrow gauge RR which had to close down in 1988 as the last one operating in the former western-germany:
http://www.jagsttalbahn.de/317.html
http://www.jagsttalbahn.de/319.html
http://www.jagsttalbahn.de/341.html
Its lots of work creating a route itself and its getting even unpossible to do such a work if you`re heavily involved in other jobs. As you`re working in Marble City I had the last 10 months to work for my master thesis and for my final exams in history of which the last I passad with success only two weeks ago...
I also didn`t find time for some months to support my friends with creating objects for the route.
So, don`t worry, I can very well understand your situation and you`re motivated to creata a new VSC-route but you don`t have just the time necassary for it.
And every human beeing needs some sparetime to recreate!
So, don`t worry. After chanceling the LNE I was surely a bit sad, because I like this wonderful route very well. Its theme is wonderful but you don`t have just the time build it...
A hanging carot are digital-rails who are anouncing a route since two years and we never here again what`s up...
So don`t worry! Just let time come! ;-)
Live isn`t for hurrying! Live is for living it!

Best regards,

Christian

P.S.: Yesterday I had to de- and reinstall MSTS. Unfortunally I didn`t make a notice of the Password of North Arkansas & St. Louis Route. So I can`t reinstall it... Is there a possibilty to get it???

When you get that first one figured out, let me know how you did it!! 'Course, you've got some particulars you're sweating out, but still - if you do figure out how to tell what tomorrow's going to bring, I don't think you'll have to worry about retirement income!

Relative to the 2nd point, I've been working away (more or less) on the Rio Grande NG whilst sitting in North Carolina. And Charlie's Silverton route was created from the east coast as well, so you don't need to be in the backyard to end up with a decent result. Granted, there are a lot of photos and books on those lines, but that's still not the same as being nearby.

Good discussions! And remember, the next project's always the best one!

Hi Andy:

I'll be sure to write a book and make a million once I can figure out futures.

Speaking of your D&RGW project: Did you ever get that tree placed correctly?

Christian:

Looks like you're doing a fine job on your narrow gauge route.

Previously you asked for some screens of the Rock Island route on my hard drive... here's a few more. Unfortuntately, I am afraid they do not show much other than helping me get an idea of the visual impact the large grain elevators would have made. (The elevators are temporary mock-ups.)

Andre

another...

Below is the last one for a while.

This is what i wanna see Taken right infront of ma house

Thanks,
Jonathan

Ah, its so nice to see those grain elevators dominating the scene, Andre. Was looking over the aerials of Enid and was quite surprised to see the shear size and number of elevators there, gives Hutchinson a run at its money. I just hope one day people in general will stop overlooking what breathtaking railroad operations we have here in the great plains and take a deeper interest in railroading around here...

Nice to see those B23-7s still earning their keep, they have 4 of those suckers running shuttle trains between here and KC everyday. Still an amazing site to see those things still running like new.

Bear in mind, Austin, that in the early 70's there were even MORE elevators than appear now on photomaps. There was also a very active oil industry.

Yup, a well done granger road would be cool.

In regards to my hobby of railroading, my problem has always been that I like SO much about railroading, I can get excited about all sorts of themes/eras/locales. MSTS only adds to the dilemma. As I've lamented so many times: It's a shame it takes so long to create a route!!!

Case in point: Tonight I have been testing some of Jon Davis' steam creations that are soon to be heading toward Consumerville. Wow! I would LOVE to create the route needed to do these beauties justice!! Like I say... I can get excited about all different kinds of railroading.

Andre Ming

I was born two decades too late to enjoy those good days of railroading you have been telling us about Andre...its really great to hear stories on how railroading was and should still be.

There also seems to be a carbon plant of some kind further north, though I don't know if that would of been around in the early 70s. There's still (or at least was a few years ago) a Koch gas refinery around Medford right next to US-81.

But back to the subject at hand...I guess?

I've started a number of the old ATSF branchlines we had up here in Kansas but, as noted in other posts of mine, I just don't have the patience to get things done. Once the trackwork and roadwork is complete, I just seem to loose interest when I realize all the scenery that is needed to be done...and I'm the same way in the model railroading world. I probably have a hundred or so of these "bare routes" sitting around on CDs, or some that just got deleted all together, waiting for my interest to regenerate with them. If I were talented enough, I'd design "scenery blocks" so it would take less time and lower the tile object counts to complete things. Perhaps in TMTS, things like this will be more streamlined.

I'm still amazed at the number of developers out there, freeware and payware, that keep enough interest and motivation into one project in order to complete it and release it. I know I wish I could be one of them...but the time and motivation just aren't there for me.

Enough from me.

Hi Andre!

Thanks for your compliments about the JTB-project! Track-lying and landscape recreating has been done by the friend who convinced me to join the project. Just the stations, the churches and the grey small goodswagons are stuff delivered by me.
My last project have been a big monastery and a gravel-plant.
Looks like we all are infected with the railroad-virus.
Means we have so much plans in our heads, but we can only realize a little part of it!
I just know it to good: Master thesis, working on an H0-Scale RR, a LGB in the garden at home in the mountains and the MSTS...

Have a nice running day on your GP! :-)

Best regards from Munich,
Bavaria,

Christian

Ah yes, how well I know the feeling of blitzing through a route placing track... only to run out of oompah when it came time to fill all that space in with "stuff".

A bit of a confession: I've also used VSC as an impetus to actuall FINISH stuff. Of course, with that comes the downside of it becoming WORK.

Given my state of limbo I'm currently in (resulting in placing all route projects on hiatus) I haven't been in RE (or AE or TSM or PSP) every free moment for several weeks now. The net result is that a desire to piddle with MSTS is returning. However (again owing to the circumstances) it's more of a hobby-like "piddle-diddling" instead of commercial-oriented "nose to the grindstone" need to crank out productivity. Much more relaxing this way.

That so, the chit-chat about the Rock Island idea in this thread sort of gave me a hankerin' to see how the engine service area could appear. So, I went into TSM and created a bit of content, then slapped together a hasty engine house scene. Using freeware engines... the pic below gave me an idea how the engine area would look. Though nowhere near a "finished scene"... I kind of think it looks "cool", and already is beginning to feel "railroady".

Have fun!

Ah yes, what a wonderful scene you got going there. I like the attempt at making the engine facility look drenched in oil and everything else that would make the EPA go bazerk over. I've heard stories of whats left at the old Rock Island facility in El Reno still being an "oil-drenched dump" and it being too hazardous to go exploring through.

"Ah yes, what a wonderful scene you got going there. I like the attempt at making the engine facility look drenched in oil..."

The oily ground is only temporary transfers. I would eventually paint the terrtex and add oil stains as I did on the A&O. Looks far better than a transfer. Look at the engine service facilities on your install of the A&O and you'll see what I mean.

For grins and giggles, I placed all the grain elevators in the central Enid industrial area and snapped an RE pic. Note there's a HUGE one in the background. I count six. Figure total car output from these six elevators to be around 80-100 (or more) per day during grain season.

I would love to see a Chicago terminal area route similar to the freeware version of the New Jersey area. There is lots of switching and you would have to take a lot of liberty with the level of details so the darn thing doesn't become a slide show. Just the same, even some of the commuter routes would be fun if there is plenty of ai traffic as in real life. If you are so inclined Andre, I can get you very good details of the commuter ops.

There are also a few nice city switching subdivisions that would be nice to do. One I was thinking about was the Skokie and Weber subdivisions on the C&NW circa 1930. These subs merged at river junction which was a mile north of Mayfair Junction at which a 3 track main of the Harvard Sub on C&NW crosses the double track main of the Milwaukee road route to Milwaukee. One of the interesting aspects was that the Skokie and Weber subs both had 2 track mains. Trains would run down from Skokie to river jct. and then BACK UP on the Weber sub to Evanston (where it met with the C&NW Old Line sub that goes to Milwaukee). The the train would run forward back toward Mayfair where it would then go down the Harvard sub into Chicago. There were 3 trains per day each way doing this. (open air coaches) The Skokie sub had some industry, but not much. The Weber sub however had quite a bit of industrial sidings to switch. among the larger customers on the line was a Material Service operation that prompted C&NW to build a small yard at Mayfair jct. to handle all the movements of sand, gravel and cement for this customer alone. Another big one was in Evanston where the North Shore railroad went over it on a tall trestle. The customer was a coal gasification plant. I think the Weber yard was probably built to handle all the traffic for this customer along with the metropolitan sanitary district (sludge trains) and maybe even an interchange with the north shore as it was near the car shops that the CTA uses now for the Skokie Swift. Off hand, other customers included at some point in time, an asphalt plant, coal dealers, oill dealers, chemical companies, transformer manufacturerer, Feltpro (automotive gaskets), Klein tools may have had a siding, at least one plastics fabricator that had 3 sidings, a scrap iron dealer and probably more that I just don't know about.

Oh yes, these lines were both signaled lines....had to be for all this activity!

I'm way late on this but here goes. As to the type of route (proto, semi-proto, fictional) it doesn't matter much to me since I wouldn't be able to tell if you did something wrong anyways That being said I do prefer switching routes. The more the merrier.....those Enid shots in another thread have me drooling. I figure the long run routes are being covered fairly well by others when I have that urge (Cascades and such) I'd say that based on your time available you might want to do like Rich does and build small sections into a larger whole if that would even be possible if you get the new job (or am I late on that one also? I hate working this many hours I lose track of everything ) As far as what era? I'm a big fan of the E and F units with a little steam mixed in....which is your fault by the way after I picked up your first route.


Jim

This has been a fun thread. Here's a few quotes & comments:

> I would love to see a Chicago terminal area route similar to the freeware version of
> the New Jersey area.

I'll probably have to leave that theme for some other route builder to tackle.

> There is lots of switching and you would have to take a lot of liberty with the level of
> details so the darn thing doesn't become a slide show.

And THAT is one of the the "gotcha's" about modeling a sizeable area with lots of track and industries. During my experimentation with that Enid module above, I'm discovering that FPS is always an issue. Grain elevators (with their poly/texture-heavy mulitiple cylindrical shapes) consumes more CPU resource than I expected. One would HAVE to regain the resources elsewhere, likely by holding down object count with multi-object items as well as foregoing lots of small detail tidbits.

Another "gotcha" that I've just learned is that MSTS doesn't seem to handle tall objects as effeciently as it does those of lesser height. Regardless of my maximum 2000 meter LOD settings on my elevator structures (set thusly so they will be visible at maximum distance) there is a noticeable "pop" when they are drawn in the sim. It seems very tall objects will not "come in" until less than 2000 meters. (Which is SUPPOSED to be the maximum drawing distance.) There's always surprises when working with this (or other) software!

> That being said I do prefer switching routes. The more the merrier..... those Enid shots
> in another thread have me drooling.

As it develops in RE, I'm realizing the Enid scene is far more complex than I first estimated. Still to come would be all the urban-type structures, more track (the Frisco yard) and such. Me fears a slide-show could be in the making.

> with a little steam mixed in....which is your fault by the way after I picked up your first route

HA! I gotcha!

Speaking with candor: A decent turn of the 19th century shortline has a LOT to commend it for this sim.

To wit:

* Towns were smaller, yet afforded many opportunities for smaller rail customers.

* Trains were shorter. (Engines couldn't pull as much, limiting train length.)

* Trains were more plentiful, even on shortlines. (Good AI potential.)

* Rails were being extended to EVERYWHERE, increasing opportunity for finding an interesting prototype to model and/or pattern a plausible proto-lanced route after.

All of the above factors mean a route creator can emphasize maximum movement (i.e. "play value) per CPU investment.

Often has been the temptation to model such a line again... only further back in time than the StLNA. (1890's seems about right.)

IMHO, most simmers want exactly what this sim struggles with most as it tries to present the route/equipment graphically and operationally:

* Long trains of high-poly rollingstock w/multiple high-poly diesels.

* Big textures on all the equipment.

* Major industries.

* Dense scenery.

* Much AI traffic, each consisting of long trains of high-poly rollingstock w/multiple high-poly diesels.

* Lots of loose consists.

* Lots of auto/vehicle traffic on the roadways with large varieties of autos/trucks.


Every item in the above list adds drastically to the taxation of the sim and the computer system running it.

Somewhat a paradox, me thinks.

Ah well... the challenges of creating content!

Okie doakie... who's next?

Andre

Hi Andre,

I, for one, would love to see another steam shortline. There aren't too many steam routes available for us end users.

Extending the StL&NA would also be great as we could utilize all the excellent equiptment from Jon Davis!

Thanks for the two great routes so far and whatever you decide, I'll be ready with the plastic card.

Bob

Hi Bob! You commented:

> I, for one, would love to see another steam shortline. There aren't too many steam
> routes available for us end users.

Properly done steam in MSTS is a hoot. (i.e. "properly done" = nice models and nice physics.) Fortunately, I have two of the best working with me in those realms! (Jon Davis and Bill Hobbs!)

> Extending the StL&NA would also be great as we could utilize all the excellent
> equiptment from Jon Davis!

Well, stranger things have happened. IMHO, I think I've already captured some of the best scenery and interest points of the prototype StLNA. The topography turns more gentle (though the 1.75% grades continue), and it's a LOOOOOOONG ways to the next REAL interest point: Harrison, Arkansas.

> Thanks for the two great routes so far and whatever you decide, I'll be ready with the plastic card.

Well, as stated, I'm mainly just having fun with RE right now: Exploring options, experimenting, and ever learning still.

I fully intend to just work on what interests me, as opposed to trying to guess what the market "wants". (As you can see from this thread, that's nigh impossible!) If a project gets finished: It will be released. If it does and sales are very flat... oh well, at least I enjoyed creating it!

Using the criteria I mentioned in the previous thread, what I think would make a great MSTS route would include:

* Terrain that has scenic impact and creates operational drama.

* Good operational concept.

* Short enough to actually have a hope of finishing it, yet long enough that it takes a fair amount of time to run end to end. (Somewhere between 30-50 minutes of mainline run.)

* Has less track (as opposed to a sprawling prototype), but arranged to offer interesting switching scenarios.

* Very rich in atmosphere so that nothing on the market looks like it.

I've got one I've dusted off tonight I'm looking at that could offer all of the above.

We shall see!

Andre

Could you make a route starting at L.A. going to San Brenardino? It could connect the Cajon Pass and Surfliner routes together.

> Could you make a route starting at L.A. going to San Brenardino?

I could. But my lack of enthusiasm for such a project would mean it wouldn't stand a dog's chance of ever getting finished. Besides, I live in the Ark-Okla area... no way for me to relate to, and therefore capture, the flavor of the area. Being accurate to a prototype would be even more difficult. Besides, IMHO, west coast railroading is pretty much done to death in MSTS.

Any future projects I may release might not appeal to the masses, but at least I will have had fun in creating it.

Andre

How can I connect routes?

It's a great big VIRTUAL world out there...............use your imagination. That works best.