Very New to MSTS (and Trains in general... having discovered them late in life)

Finally completed NA activity 3, Local to Berryville, although at times I was reduced to going so slowly, small boys were running up and playing, noughts and crosses on the side of the tender!

Avoided the cornfield meet... Just... I was late at Grandview and was pulling out of the Kings River Tie Spur, and on the mainline when I saw a plume of smoke on the horizon... Very fast into reverse and backed into the spur, just in time to watch No4 pass on the mainline ... phew...

Lots of questions though... Sand... used a ton of it... How much did these engines carry?... Was it used in these quantities IRL?... Did it build up over the years, and people had to go out and clear it up ... Does it ever run out in MSTS?

Brakes... Having finally got my head around how they work... Have some Sumpter Valley Narrow Gauge activities where the recommendation on downhill grades is to put the CUT-OFF into reverse... and get the engine to work against the grade... Realistic? I ask because the technique works very well in MSTS as a type of dynamic braking, but is not mentioned in the NA manual.

Also its possible at low speeds to change direction from forward to reverse with just the CUT-OFF... again realistic? ...works nicely in MSTS. (Out of context with NA, is this at all realistic with a diesel?)

Also I was under the impression that a RELEASE of the brakes was a full 'dump' to atmosphere. Yet in MSTS it seems that you can select release at say 60psi and selectively reduce the braking force by moving back quickly to LAP at say 65psi. Is this a false reading?

Also the brake pipe pressure seemed to recover quite quickly to 70psi. Is this the same as the reservoir pressure talked about in the notes? If not is there any indication of what braking capacity is available?

Finally what was the reason for not using animated water towers? And is there a passenger activity, that uses some of the fine Eureka rolling stock?

All in All a very enjoyable ride... Many Thanks to Andre and all who helped...

"Lots of questions though... "

Well, I've got lots of answers. Some of them are factual. For the one's I don't know, I'll make something up.


" Sand... used a ton of it... How much did these engines carry?... "

Not as much as you have in MSTS (unlimited). However, MSTS doesn't really model the foilbles that factor into a prototype's adhesion abilities and items that modify it. (Like a weed grown siding on a grade, for example.) So, the trade off results in a sim experience that's pretty good, but not like the real thing.


"Brakes... on downhill grades... put the CUT-OFF into reverse... and get the engine to work against the grade... Realistic?"

No.

At least not on the steam powered prototypye (tourist) line I worked for.

"I ask because the technique works very well in MSTS as a type of dynamic braking, but is not mentioned in the NA manual."

Because I've never heard of it being done in any historical account, and certainly it was out of the question on the steam line I have experience on.

"Also its possible at low speeds to change direction from forward to reverse with just the CUT-OFF... again realistic?"

Again, no. For those that have not had the opportunity to railroad aboard a steam engine, they don't understand that it takes some time to accomplish things, as well as the very real possibilty sliding/slipping the wheels if you get too enthusiastic on the brakes or throtte.

Plus, a prototype engineer is never to "assume" he knows the next move the ground crew is going to call for. When switching, I would stop according to the brakeman's hand signal. Sit still until given the next hand signal, then proceed until the next hand signal is given, etc. Even at that, there were strict rules about how to proceed. For example, when switching via hand signals, I had to be able to make visual contact with a ground crewman giving hand signals... if I lost sight of him (like when he didn't have his head cut-in and became hidden while switching on a curve), I was to come to a stop until a ground crewman re-established visual contact. In MSTS, you emulate both the ground crew AND the engineer, so it is easier to "anticipate" your next move (and thus "cheat", so to speak).


"Also I was under the impression that a RELEASE of the brakes was a full 'dump' to atmosphere. Yet in MSTS it seems that you can select release at say 60psi and selectively reduce the braking force by moving back quickly to LAP at say 65psi. Is this a false reading?"

Actually, on some of the older "hand lap" brake valves, you could release then reset without fully dumping the air.


"Also the brake pipe pressure seemed to recover quite quickly to 70psi."

I cut you guys some slack. (Perhaps too much slack.)


"Is this the same as the reservoir pressure talked about in the notes?

No. The 70 PSI seen in the F5 HUD is the Brake Pipe Pressure (i.e. the "train line".)


"If not is there any indication of what braking capacity is available?"

In their infinite wisdom, KUJU felt steam engineers didn't need to know such frivilous info.


"Finally what was the reason for not using animated water towers?"

The generous model builder that supplied those as a favor didn't animate them.


"And is there a passenger activity, that uses some of the fine Eureka rolling stock?"

No, not at this time. There will be some included with the release of the North Arkansas Equipment Pack due out in the near future.

"All in All a very enjoyable ride... "

I'm glad you're enjoying it!


"Many Thanks to Andre and all who helped... "

You're welcome!

Andre

Actually, on the narrow gauge Denver and Rio Grande Western and the Rio Grande Southern they used to use what they called a "water brake" on superheated engines. This was accomplished by a valve used to feed saturated ralatively low pressure steam from the header to the cylinders which would be used in reverse motion to retard the motion of the engine or train. These were particularly effective with a light engine since the braking power of an engine and tender were limited on the 4% grades. Helper engines used the water brake a lot. There is some indication that soaks also used the practice with light throttle and back motion.

Of course, you could suck cinders into the cylinders if you closed the saturated throttle before centering the motion but in the sim we don't have to worry about that, do we? And, as Frascati said, this does work like a champ as steam "dynamics!" Even with Cab ahead 4-8-8-2's and 484's!

I was aware of using the saturated technique on light engines and such, having learned of it in cab conversations with C&T engineers, but as to general practice and practical application, IMHO the answer to the question as asked would still be "no".

I was in the Eureka Springs engine house, going over the Three Spot after an afternoon run from Berryville. The sun was westering behind the ridge so it was getting harder to see much by the light of the flickering torch. As I came around the tender, I could see the familiar form of J.D. Locke standing in the doorway. Returning my handshake, he motioned to the old chairs circled around the enginehouse stove. The chairs were hand-me downs from the depot when they got those new swivel chairs.

I raised the questions various boomers brought to our little mountain line, wondering about the "Naught but Arkansas" operating practices. J.D. lit up a cigar, leaned back and closed his eyes:

"Time was when a natural born engineer knew all this stuff. Well, but now y' got folks out there running the line with all kinds of hair-brained ideas! Son, this is how we run a locomotive on the North Arkansas and you can tell all the other greenhorns I said so ..."

I didn't know if I liked being called a greenhorn, but I held my tongue and kept listening:

"I already talked a tin ear off y' 'bout yor Johnson Bar and climbin' a grade, but 'seems that folks don't know how to descend a grade. Nor how these new-fangled triple valves work. Well, here's what y' do to set up for a descent. Take Seligman fur example. Ease up yur throttle so jest a trickle of steam is entering the cylinders. Y' need to work a little bit of steam to keep yur pistons floating so yur engines don't become a giant air pump. Ever hear how some descend the grade w' narry a clank of the rods? While others sound like Aunt Sadie falling down the porch steps w' a load of pots. Work steam while yur descending, but never more than 5%.

"An jest fergit that Colorado nonsense - we ain't got nothing but almost 2% percent grades here. Ain't no call for working steam in reverse, water brakes and all that high-altitude malarky. I swear there's a something in the moonshine out there ..."

"Now when you nose over at Seligman, make an immediate 7 lbs reduction. Some hoggers call it "a set". I hear tell that they's got a new triple valve that makes an automatic 7 lbs reduction, but I haven't seen any in interchange. After that, keep bringing her down until you've got near 15 lbs knocked off. Mind, don't knock off too much or you'll be up the crick. The trick is to get the air down and get it down early. That way, if you don't have it reduced enough, you'll know, but not in a way that gives y' gray hair.

"Ride that reduction as far as you kin. On Seligman, 15 lbs will bring you down to the first sag where y' kin catch yer breath. Now I was on with some hair-brained greenhorn t' other day who released an then put her back in lap before the train recharged. Thought he was living in the future, he did. When you release, you're released. Ain't no two ways about it. You send that slug of air down the trainline an' the triples are gonna release.

"An' don't be fooled by yer pressure gauge when you release. She'll climb right back up there t' 70 lbs. But trainline and auxilary reservoir pressure are two different things. Trainline will read 70 lbs cause she's still charging. But you've got to count to at least ten before your car reservoirs recover to a respectable pressure. Let her get to a crawl, then kick her into release. The train should recharge before yer speed gits hairy.

"Well, that's enough preachin' fer one night. You want more preaching, just drop into that lil chapel that sits south of the t' yard in Berryville. Young Andre will give y' an earful ..."

J.D. sauntered out the door into the night. The flickering torch made huge shadows on the far shed wall. Sarge is a little bit cussed but he gives good counsel.

Nice post Steve. I enjoyed it a lot! And well said too!

Thanks for all your replies. Really helpful to this 'Greenhorn'... must look that up to see what it means,and if it's complimentary...

I'm still interested in knowing how much sand these engines carried... Some of the climbs are so much easier if you have the sander on all of the time... how long would it last if you did that IRL... Just to be able to limit myself on an honour system... or maybe if I got a REAL sand eggtimer... ... sorry... beginning to lose it there

Also is it easy to get the water tower points to work... Not animation, but just to be able to fill up with the T key... Not being contentious here, but if I might explain myself...

I view my MSTS experience as a simulation... The more that can be simulated, the better my 'suspension of disbelief' sitting in front of my 21st century computer screen... Sitting by a water tower, counting to 120 to no effect, isn't part of of that experience... Talk of the Freeman water tower as being the only water around is just 'chrome' unless it actually is... All I'm asking for is can the 'T' key be to work... that is... easily

... Next post will be about all of the coal bins... for wood burning engines/tenders?... perhaps the StL&NA got a special deal from all of the waste from all those ties, whilst the track was being laid...

It's pretty much like "rookie" or "newbie," depending upon your vintage. You can take it as an insult, but since we were all greenhorns at one time or another (and some of us continue to be!), if you accept it as a statement of fact and "keep yer trap shut 'n lern sump'n" you'll outgrow it in a hurry. Since there's a lot of us out here who think we know more than we really do, some folks do take it to be less than complimentary.

Loved the story line, Steve.

Frascati:

"Greenhorn": A term for a "new hire". Not used in a derogatory sense (above), but more to set the tone of "Sarge's" personality.

Replies to your input:

Pick-up Points -

The reason those do not exist at either the watertanks or coal bins is simple: I didn't know how to implement those when I built that route.

Woodburners -

The supplied models are freeware models generously supplied by John Fowlis, for which I am very grateful. Had it not been for those models, I would have been in dire straits for equipment at the time. The original model happened to be a woodburner. I do not have access to the model's .dst files to modify it. Besides, I would also have had to have permission from John Fowlis to modify the model. A 100% accurate simulation, the North Arkansas is not. A convincing experience it can be if one is willing to accept a few shortcomings, as one has to do with essentially all routes and equipment.

Sand capacity -

Prototype engines of that size had sand capacity in the neighborhood of the holding capacity of 30-40 gallon drum barrels. How long it would last depended on how many sanding tubes to the drivers and how used. Most sanding domes could contain enough sand to get the train over the assigned portion of route to the next sanding facility. IMHO it was rare to run out of sand.

Andre