Sometimes I suffer really bad from "analysis paralysis". Obviously, the term is self explanitory. Guily, am I.

I've been suffering from "analysis paralysis" with SF Jct in Ft. Smith. Doesn't help matters when there's conflicting information and data. SF Jct was on the southern outskirts of Ft. Smith. (Outskirts of Ft. Smith in 1908, that is!) No less than 7 railroads passed through SF Jct:

Frisco
Kansas City Southern
Iron Mountain & Southern
Arkansas Central
Midland Valley
Ft. Smith & Western
Plus a a Rock Island passenger train in/out of Ft. Smith.

In addition, two yards were accessed via SF Jct, as well as mulitiple interchange points for several of the lines.

Looking at the attached pic illustrating the current state of SF Jct: As you can see from the markers, it's quite "busy" with tracks and crossings hither and yon. IF I can ever get the actual "junction" parts figured out... then I'm off and running again.

Trouble is, the maps show different track arrangements. None of them truly "authoritative". However, when I pass over the current SF Jct on the rails of Arkansas & Missouri, I DO find physical evidence that validate SOME of the question marks. BUT... there are still gaps in the data. That's why the "analysis paralysis".

HOWEVER!!!!

Tonight I'm a' gonna' do it.

Yup... I'm taking my best guess... and tonight I'm going to complete this area, or my name ain't Coonskin the Great.

Wish me luck!!!

How about good luck and I know a good shrink that may be of help!

Jim

OOOHHHH!!! Andre, Luck is not a factor. SKILL, my boy SKILL!!!!!!!

Eureka!!

SF Jct is IN!!!

(See pic below!)

Now I can strike off for the Frisco yard, the KCS yard, the Iron Mountain yard, the Ft. Smith & Western yard, and...

It's me again Maragret ...

Flushed with getting SF Jct in, I backed off and looked at the overall scheme of what all will be in Ft. Smith. Looking at my historic photos, Sanborn maps, and so forth, the first thought is "Wow! This is going to be SO cool. Look at all this neat STUFF! Main street, big buildings, railroad yards, industrial switching, and..."

Of course, then reality hits. You can only do SO much with a train simulator.

Soooooo...

Time to set priorities. After giving this some though, I have decided:

1. Operation is going to be the number one priority.

My thinking is: IF I'm going to go to the effort to build this thing, then I think I want to spend my MSTS resource allotments emphasizing the RAILROADING and not the SCENERY. Thus, I will try to incorporate as many operational features as will be practical, yet still leave resource headroom to actually USE the facilities.

2. On the city tiles, scenery considerations will be secondary to the railroading.

This may mean that my cityscape will have to be "impressionistic" as opposed to highly detailed. By that I mean the distant structures will be simplistic, object groupings will have to be utilized (which means you won't be able to reuse single items on your own routes), the dirt city streets will be painted on the the terrtex, etc. In fact, I suspect I'm going to have to rely heavily on terrtex to give the impressions I hope to achieve.

3. On tiles where lack of track density allows, up the scenery density.

Anyhoo... it's going to be a major challenge dealing with the Ft. Smith and Van Buren tiles. IF I can successfully pull off the tile density the tiles these two twin cities will consume, the rest of the route will be a cake walk. Well... a cake walk in comparison to the above tiles.

This so, once it's time to populate the tiles with static objects, I think I would like to get those tiles completed FIRST. 'Cause if'n I can't do it to suit me, I know I've got problems.

Thoughts?

Yes. Operations over jewelry any day.

Andre

Your thinking on cities and railroading mirrors my own. I have joined with a fellow UK MSTS fan in building the ASAB. We are still banging nails in ties right now, but there are two biggish urban areas to deal with, Panama City and Dothan.

Steve:

"Jewelry"... nice analogy! Guess it could be called "bling", too, huh?


Mervyn:

What is the ASAB? Sounds interesting.

SF Jct has always been one of those places that I'm sure was quite busy when FSM was on Frisco's main to Paris (TX) and there was 5 railroads in town (MoP/St. Louis & Iron Mtn, SL-SF, KCS, FSW and MV). I'm guessing it's always been a free-for-all of sort with no real tower/interlocking facility there. Though since Ft. Smith is no longer on anyone's mainline...it isn't quite as busy as other towns it's size (or smaller). Of the 20 years I've lived in FSM, I've never been able to catch the A&M-KCS-UP/FSR at SF Jct at the same time.

For some strange reason I thought you were going to work from SL-SF's yard south into the "coal belt". Yeah, it would be rather hard to release this all at once. Though once it's done...WOW! What an add-on route(s).

Zack commented:



Five? Hmmm... thought there were more than that. SLSF, MV, AC, IM&S, FS&W, KCS: Six. (Point click: Off to my folder to retrieve some data...)

Well I'll be. Some interesting tidbids that I have overlooked:

According to the Ft. Smith Timeline compiled by Ft. Smith historians greater than I, the Arkansas Central was incorporated April 29, 1897. The same year the AC built the depot that we Ft. Smith regionals knew as the Missouri Pacific depot. It is noted on the timeline that the Iron Mountain also used the depot.

By 1899, the Iron Mountain & Southern took control of the AC. (Note: On the timeline beside the 1899 date is "1901?" in parenthesis.)

SOOO... by 1908 (my target era) Zack is likely correct: There were only five Ft. Smith railroads at that time, the AC being absorbed by the IM&S, and the CRIP not having a presence at Ft. Smith, merely a passenger train to/from.



Having worked for the A&M now for going on 3 years... I can say that such an occurance doesn't happen very often. However, there HAVE been times that we needed a traffic cop directing the moves! Especially when the KCS is still switching in their yard, and we (A&M) and the FSR both have to shove deliveries therein. Time for a footboard meeting (i.e. "job briefing")... and then get to it.



Well... it's just sort of growing on me. Think of it, you can have three distinct and complete operations:

SLSF operations to/from VB/FS and the Coal Belt.
MV operations to/from FS and the Coal Belt, (including their lines to Hartford and Greenwood.)
IM&S operations to/from VB/FS and (eventually) the Coal Belt (Greenwood).

BUT, my dream is even more vast:

SOMEDAY (year?) if I actually accomplish the Coal Belt portion... I would like to strike off north to Fayetteville on the SLSF. Wow... towns that are merely tourist sign posts would be recreated again. Meadows, Lancaster, Mountainburg, Porter (Schaberg), and such. Chester would have a roundhouse, turntable, a small yard and industries. Once at Fayetteville... think of the railroading there in 1908! Ahhhh... the fun of dreaming.

However, reality check: Tracklaying in Ft. Smith has JUST started.

So, HOW in Sam Hill do I expect/hope to EVER do this, you ask?

Well, I'm coming to view my MSTS as a "hobby" now instead of a business and its associated pressures/demands. In addition, I consider the Coal Belt route concept like a model railroad "layout". That is, it's something you work on when you're in the mood... and something that may never be fully 100% "complete". Of course, as stated... if/when a portion gets done, I will make said portion available for those so inclined!

It's fun!

If you want to be a stickler for details...in 1908 there was streetcars/trolleys in operation in FSM/VB. It would take me a bit of digging...but they did at one time go to South Ft. Smith. Station was located where AC/MoP/FSR crosses South 31th....would have been across from the old Arkansas Casket Company factory/building. I know the streetcar line would have been there to the end...the trolley's shut down in 11/33; it's the beginning that I don't know off the top of my head. It will also take me a bit of digging to see which map would show the exact alignment; but from memory the trolley tracks came right up to the AC depot there in South Ft. Smith.

The closest the streetcar would have gotten to SLSF trackage would have been Garrison & 2nd; want to say it wasn't until the teens that a loop was put in on that end of the Ave to keep from "turning the cars" in the middle of the road. Almost for got the line out to Arkhoma...ducked under the Frisco there at "Y" street. Again, going to have to go look that one up...but it would have been around the TOC or into the teens (note to self....find the details).

On the AC/MoP...what is now the intersection of Towson & Fresno the line came from downtown (Towson) and turned east (Fresno) to head to a streetcar junction that sat where Ramsey Jr. High is today. From the few maps of the day that I've seen, the two line did not cross, just got close to each other. The trolley line to Arkhoma would have crossed the AC/MoP at South Y before continuing west to duck under the SL-SF. If you come down Towson (compass South), turn onto "W" (compass West)...that is the RoW and your on it to just short of "Blocker" in Arkhoma. There are a few photos from when FSL&T (Ft. Smith Light & Traction) built the extension, but they're rare; and I can't find any online...just in two books.

Not sure how much these help you; but I'm in the Christmas spirit, so I'm passing out freebies.

Ah, yes, the Christmas spirit! Freebies always appreciated.

Alas, me thinks the tile densities are going to be substantial in the downtown areas. Modeling some of the trolly lines would be nice... but I suspect I will face a significant challenge attempting to fit-in acceptable representives for the rails of the primary lines, much less the trolly lines.

HOWEVER... I do have an idea that, if it works, would allow the player to see some trolly action.

Speaking of which: Is the color scheme being used on the Ft. Smith trollies the original scheme?

I'm sure those "right-angle" turns would be interesting in MSTS. The orange one that you see in downtown would be right for post '26. Before that they were a Pullman shade of green with gold lettering dating back to around TOC. I don't think any of the woodend cars (circa 1893-1933) were repainted into "Traction Orange". I'm far from an expert on the subject...but I know who to ask

Tim!

Andre
The ASAB is the Atlanta and St Andrews Bay built back in the early 1900s from Panama City, Fl to Dothan, Al. When completed it interchanged with the L&N at Cottondale, and with the CofG and ACL at Dothan.

In the latter part of the last century the interchanges were with CSX and NS, with a couple of new shortlines in the mix as well.

Now the ASAB is owned by the Genesee and Wyoming along with a lot of other shortlines in FL and AL.

The line is also known as The Bay Line.

Zack:

Actually, XTracks has tight trolley curves. However, as stated, I seriously doubt I'll have the CPU headroom to add a trolly system. Thanks for the tips on the color schemes. Pullman Green, hun? Welp... so much for using photo textures from the Ft. Smith trollies at the museum!


Mervyn:

Thanks for the input. Sounds like it should be a nice route.


All:

Been plugging along as mood inclines. Below is an up-to-the-minute (11/18/09) RE pic of what Fort Smith now looks like. Still to go in this tile is a simplified KCS yard and a VERY simplified Ft. Smith & Western yard. Simply running out of track allotment! (Currently the track items are at nearly 30% of my target tile object count.)

Andre,

If/when you get to the public release point with this, you are going to provide a tutorial on that maze, aren't you? It looks like the interchange of five Interstates, all on one level!!!

Bill

Yup, there would have to be some documentation. Also, onboard "Intro Rides" ala' the Ozark Northern to familiarize the newcomer to this maze. Each line's Intro Rides would run over the various portions of that particular line. In other words, there would be an intro for, say, Van Buren to Greenwood on the Iron Mountain & Southern. One for Ft. Smith to Excelsior on the Midland Valley. And so forth.

This route has SO MUCH operational potential it is truly mind boggling. IF this thing gets finished, keep in mind that I'm talking the ability to operate on three distinct lines:

The Frisco -

Yard job(s) at Ft. Smith.
Industry switching at Ft. Smith.
Interchange transfers at Ft. Smith
Turns from Ft. Smith to Van Buren/return.
Switch job at Jenson.
Ft. Smith/Jenson coal turns
Jenson/Ft. Smith coal turns
Jenson/Mansfield coal local.
Ft. Smith to Mansfield passenger train(s).
Ft. Smith to Mansfield freight turns.
Ft. Smith to Mansfield local.
???

Midland Valley -

Ft. Smith yard switching.
Ft. Smith industry switching.
Interchange transfers at Ft. Smith.
Excelsior to Ft. Smith turns.
Excelsior to Hartford turns.
Excelsior to Greenwood/Fidelity mine run.
Excelsior to Maney Jct turn (mine work).
Plus passenger trains.
???

Iron Mountain & Southern -

Yard job(s) at Van Buren.
Ft. Smith yard/industry switching.
Van Buren/Ft. Smith turns.
Interchange transfers Van Buren to Ft. Smith area.
Van Buren to Greenwood turns.
Greenwood branch mine runs.
Passenger trains.
???

Of course, no way in China I will have the entire route completed in a year or more. At this point, I hope to complete the Van Buren/Ft. Smith segment first. Just that will offer all the Ft. Smith/Van Buren city switching and transfers for the three railroads mentioned above.

IMHO, this thing will require its own mini-install, complete with its own equipment. Nothing else therein. This is what I have done to test the running copies of the route. That is, I develop it in my primary Train Simulator editors/tools, then copy to the CoalBelt mini-route for testing. As I do, I zip/backup each version.

Welp... all for tonight. I'm off to bed!

Trying to keep up with who on 1st, what's on 2nd.....err oops, wrong radio show. Anyway...didn't you say by '08 AC was part of IM&S by several years? Wouldn't you have the passenger trains/locals/coal trains from Charleston/Paris/Subicco (and points east) to deal with in this mess? I know there was a fair amount of strip mining going on north of Charleston. And some strip & shaft mining West of Paris...place called Carbon City, go figure! But I'm not sure when that coal would have started rolling by rail. From what I've seen/walked those lines wouldn't have been as interesting to work...other than your one-zes & two-zes that would have been there into the '40s/'50s. The terrain comes across as similar as the old GNA.
This whole project/line of thinking has the makings of a crown jewel. I wish you the best of luck, even if it's just a hobby.

Came across this South Ft. Smith industry that was built a mere 6 years too late for "the coal belt"....

Ft. Smith Sorghum Mill

I knew there was some large factories in that area, just didn't know what they were. Most of them were gone before I moved to town. Until the city undertook their street improvement projects about 10 years ago...there was allot of former RoW visible around town....including rails still in the road.

Interesting find, there Zackery!

Alas, it's the wrong location to solve a puzzle I've come across, said puzzle being:

In your Ft. Smith historical wanderings, have you ever come across anything that would explain the industrial "ruins" that were between Jenny Lind street the FSR rails? DECADES ago (mid-70's) I rode one of my dirt bikes over there a time or two. It was obvious at the time that some sort of industrial plant had been there.

Further adding to the mystery: I now have a digitized version of a 1907 Iron Mountain & Southern timetable. In it, I learn there was a rail crossing .01 mile south of AC Jct.

I wonder if this was trackage over to the mystery industry I speak of? Wonder if it was another zinc smelter? (There were at least one or two in FS during the 1900's.)

Rail/industrial history is so interesting. (And fun!)

While I'm at it...

Here's a pic of the the current (downtown) Ft. Smith tile. It's going to be a booger to hold my object count to within reason here. THIS is the tile that I'm worried the most about. IF I can pull off this tile, I can do the entire route concept (just takes time/effort!)

The dirt road sections are only place holders to locate track and such. Eventually they will all be removed and the dirt roads will be painted on the terrtex ala' the Ozark Northern. That will help... some.

Worst case scenario is that I'll have to come back and simplify the track. I've already resigned myself to the fact that the KCS and FS&W tracks (not pictured) will be SEVERELY simplified since those are only there for effect and a bit of shove/pull interchange.

Here's an overall view from the Activity Editor that shows how Ft. Smith lays...

Last one for now:

Here's a closer look at the abuilding downtown area with a bit of explanitory annotation...

I thought the junction over at Dora was called Greenwood? As far as industry ruins...I'll have do dig around on that one. I know there was two zinc smelters between South Ft. Smith and Carnall (town)...just don't know when they were built or torn down. They sat across Old Greenwood Road from each other; at the junction of Zero & Old Greenwood. GNB Battery sits on one..and Trane has a warehouse on the other. I wonder when the "connection track" was taken out between where the AC & IMS crossed and where AC & Frisco interchanged...was taken out?

"I thought the junction over at Dora was called Greenwood?"

So did I. Later it was. However, in the 1907 IM&S timetable it's called "Cherokee Jct." That was news to me, too.

I don't know when the name was changed. Likely it was changed in view of Indian Territory becoming Oklahoma.

Zinc smelters:

So the zinc smelters were actually on the Suburban line?

AC/Frisco Connection:

That only shows up on one map I have. I would be hardpressed to confirm it was ever built, or if only proposed. Or, if it was abandoned early-on after the AC became the IM&S.

I ran into a situation where an alignment was shown on a map, but was never built, when I was researching the Black Mountain & Eastern some years ago. I discovered they were purchasing the land to bypass their switchbacks with a huge "Tanglefoot Curve" sort of routing from the side of Black Mountain down to Fane Creek hollow. I have copy of a map (somewhere!) that shows the route as "fact"... but it was never built. The BM&E/CC&E used the switchbacks until they ceased to be in 1927.

This is good stuff, huh?

The two I know of were on the AC/IMS line headed out toward Barling. I do remember for a long time nothing would grow on the corner of Old Greenwood & Zero. Developers have since trucked quite a bit of topsoil to get rid of that "moonscape" look. Back in my steering-wheel holder days I took several yellow machines in there...lovely place to get in/out of during shift change. The only businesses that I'm aware of that were on the Suburban were Acme Brick, Pradco (would have been a late '70s industry), the block/ashplat plant off North "Oh" (stopped getting rail service in the early '80s) and the freezer way over off Midland. Hopefully when Christmas passes I can spend a little extra time digging through old emails/bug some folks and see what pops up.

I've often wonder if that was ever built...I can't see anything around town in that area that would look like an old RoW...granted were talking about a track that would have most likely been ripped out at least 80 years ago. The only way to know would to be stomp off in the weeds around the FSR and A&M where the trackage would have been. I have my doubts now; remembering the discussion about that huge loop BM&E was going to build...but never was. I've always loved history and understanding how my grandparents/great-grandparents lived day to day. I appreciate my a/c, microwave, computer & internet allot more after a dose of history.

Ah... I think I know where you're talking about now on the zinc smelters: Out toward the location of "North American Foundry", which survived into the late 60's early 70's. (I "think" I recall.)

I intend to model east of AC Jct as far as the old South Forth Smith location, complete with "Arkansas Casket" if'n I can. My thinking was to model the AC east to the yard limits (track would go past the limits) so some Ft. Smith based local/industry switching could take place on the IM&S/AC.

Long ways to go before this idea is even on the radar screen!