I went ahead and bought the European version of KRS to learn about how steam is set up in the new sim. While I like the appearance and sounds of the new sim, developing routes and equipment for it will be difficult. As of now the available documentation is even less than that for MSTS and no one has a knowledge base to work from. And things like the sound are much higher tech and will be more difficult to work with. I would estimate that it will be at least a year before anything other than trial efforts will be available -- probably longer for first class routes.

I am keeping MSTS and Andre's route active. What matters to me more than the high-tech whiz-bang stuff is whether or not the route and equipmnt as a whole are appealing.

I had to upgrade my video card and power supply for the new sim and now wish I had done so long ago. I doubled the frame rates on MSTS with the new card and also eliminated the heating problem I had been having when running the sim for long periods.

Bill Hobbs

Thanks for the commentary, Bill. Both KRS and MSTS2 face the challenge of content. Likely, it will be a very long time (years) before they can reach the level of the current sim in that regard. Be that as it may, I plan on running my ten-wheelers over the StLNA and cabforwards/F-7s over Donner for a long time to come.

I always figured one of the problems that would become evident w/ a new similator is there will be a substantial reduction in the number of people will have the artistic skill to stand up to what the new sim can show. But I think it also means people will accept the challenge and become better. It'll take time tho.

The other thing about starting in on KRS is just that: starting. Everything is back at the starting line again... nothing is directly backwards compatible. In some cases that is good but in others it's a real loss. We're back to typing every value on every line of the .wag and .eng files... trying to understand the physics... etc. etc.

IMO there is no good reason for the accumulated knowledge that's been built up over time in our .wag and .eng files to be tossed out. Isn't Max_Boiler_Pressure going to mean the same thing no matter who wrote the sim... or how they named the parameter? For headlights to do the same thing?

It remains an irritant to me that the software guys seem to be too uncomfortable with the idea of opening up certain areas for community management (i.e., open source). Perhaps RSDL, under the onslaught, will free up more of the innards, but I have this feeling that having had their head handed back to them for working so hard to produce something with so many gaps .... they'll be working so hard to produce something... and never stop to think of what they're good at and what we're good at. It is complementary.

When you think about, RS really only has about a year of shelf life before MSTS2 hits the market and from the recent pictures Marc posted of MSTS2, it blows RS out of the water.

For those of us into period modeling, it remains to be seen what MSTSII will offer. So far, it appears to be all modern stuff.
I managed last night to get a look at the steam loco variables for KRS. Hum, they look awfully familiar. But how to set them? I have started testing a few things on existing equipment and am working up a list of things that appear to be good and those that seem to be wrong. I am by no means anti-KRS. I wnet through a lot of hoops to get my hands on the software (had to enroll my son who is living in London to buy it, for instance). I am trying to find out what it will mean for my enjoyment in the hobby, which is mainly in getting steam locos to run right and then running them.
My warnings about time frames above are based on the difficulty we face in getting enough info to do much of anything. The US version is not due out until Jan -- another triumph for the legal department which probably gets paid by either the word or the hour.
As far as I am concerned, the original MSTS is still enjoyable and the fact taht it might not be state of the art is certainly less important than the fact that I have a number of very good routes, locos, and equipment that are more than adequate for my entertainment.
In the meanwhile, experimentation goes on....

Bill Hobbs

I see no reason in creating add-ons for a game that has many similarities as MSTS, but has no drastic change of effects. MSTS2 seems to have much more of what the people want. For example: KRS has trains that move, but no up and down, side to side motion, only translational motion. MSTS2 in one of tdragger's posts seems to have that effect allready paved. In my opinion KRS seems to be dead, in a casket, and allready buried. MSTS 2 is what you really want, so don't waste your time on KRS.

Yeah, the pictures look pretty darn good. But a sim isn't a still life and pretty pictures alone won't make it worth much of anything.

I'm sure if you asked 100 simmers what are the critical features they want in a sim, you'd have 300-500 different answers. So for the software guys doing the design, it has to be a major challenge figuring out what to do and what to leave out.

But then, the task list is so large because they (any vendor, so far) seem to be keen on re-inventing the wheel each time. Is that the way it's always going to be or will one of these products have enough legs in it to get a second, backward compatible version? I dunno.

What I do know is that were I to invest my time in physical model railroading I'd be working w/ standards that have longevity. I might not want to buy that HO Scale Athearn boxcar made from 45 year old tooling... but if I did, there's a fair chance that 45 years from now, it'd be able to roll down new purchased track, no matter how ugly it looks. That hobby has legs because there are certain standards in place that allow reuse from one product era to the next, giving each consumer a rolling upgrade to ever more modern quality.

For VR, so far we have no standards, nor any indication that any might be developed. Everything, good, bad, inbetween, has to be replaced. Sure, some folks will be able to salvage cad files and re-export them into new formats... generally a good thing... but that addresses only their static appearance -- the inanimate screenshot. It does nothing to address the motion of an object thru space, presented on your screen, in a manner that resembles railroading. All of that .wag, .eng., con data is lost with each new sim product. At least until some individual takes the time to write a gift (or payware) conversion tool.

What this means is so long as the products return us to the starting line, the start has to be slow, has to be frustrating, has to be lost time for payware, and has to beg the question of will that newly announced product from XYZ games deal with this mess?

Isn't crazy doing the same thing over and over again while counting on the results to be different? That's what we have today. Well, it's going to take somebody w/ some nerve to architect a solution that lets go of control over every facet of the product... that leaves to us those portions where our own knowledge and interest is strong -- the railroad portion, and keeps for themselves the computer technology half. And to do so in a manner that other vendors products can use. IOW competition at the computer level, not locomotive power curves. I don't expect to see that anytime soon tho.

While I agree to some degree with your statement on the shots of MSTS 2 that Marc posted being better than RS. A screenshot really cant tell you "How good" the sim will be when released as I always believe that a screenshot can be deceiving at times no matter if it is the original MSTS sim or any other game like a racing sim or something else of that nature.

Of course, I am crossing my fingers that the screenshots that Rick posted of MSTS 2 will be that good when the sim comes out as everything I have heard about the KRS sim so far really hasnt turned me on to that sim personally. Does that mean that I wont get the RS sim at some point in the future? Probably not, I will probably get it at some point. Ill most likely just get it from ebay as I believe within the first month of the NA release. There will be a good amount of cheap copies of RS available instead of spending $40 on the sim.

I guess we will have to wait and see for this to play out for the MSTS 2 program. All I know is that I will be getting the MSTS 2 sim when released no matter how much it is sold at retail stores as I am more interested in the MSTS 2 program than the KRS sim.

To paraphrase Mark Twain - "Reports of KRS death are greatly exaggerated".

I think it is not quite dead yet - I certainly wouldn't put on the funeral garb .

Like Dave suggests, there are different needs for different folks, but the one advantage KRS has at the moment is that it is available, MSTS2 isn't (may be a relatively short lived advantage , but there again, maybe not ).

I have said elsewhare, but it bears repeating, leaving aside Trainz, I now have 2 rail sims that I enjoy using, both for different reasons. Both have their considerable advantages and disadvantages. For me, MSTS's biggest down is that even with a good computer, on a realistically detailed route the framerates are still relatively poor - the opposite is the case with KRS. The current down with KRS though is the lack of US content, but that will change come January (just hope I don't have to buy another copy of the sim from the US to get it ).

Rod

> ...the lack of US content, but that will change come January ....
Last I heard was they're replacing just one of the European routes w/ one for North America, probably from from 3dtrainstuff.

Only part of the Cajon work comes from 3DTS (DEM, initial track laying, and the modern UP loco). Everything else, IIRC, was done either in-house or by another 3rd-party European outfit (Trainzoo perhaps?).

The problem I have with RS is in the editing, and is nothing more than a sandbox in its current state. I like the sim, but whomever designed the editing utilities didn't plan things too well. When I want to create for MSTS (or even Trainz), all that's needed is to export the models, create a few config files, and then view in the sim. Viola! What could be easier? (At least to me anyway.)

RS has it completely screwed up. You have to export to a predefined "Source" folder, and then export/convert all files again to be able to use it in RS. If things don't work quite right, then it's a pain to find where the problem lies. That's just dumb.

Cheers!
Marc

To get up to speed with TS2 - just spend the next year learning FSX.

It will be very similar.

Well, that is one more than of now

I will be totally honest and say that the long term shortage of different engines and rolling stock will seriously compromise any equally long term enjoyment of the sim - with all my mini train sim installations I have a very large quantity of quality engines to run - would not want to be restricted to only one or two. If KRS or MSTS2 is too difficult to produce a variety of engines, stock or routes for, then it, or they, will not flourish - they won't die (RS is visually too good for thar), but they simply won't thrive.

Anyway, all this is conjecture - lets wait a year and see what gives then - in the meantime I am off to play trains...now, where is my Trainz disc

Rod

I also understand that RS is going to make everyone submit all assets/content you create to them FIRST for approval. Which can mean, if somebody is in front of you with the same item, you could loose out.
A $2,000 fee is also being discussed if you happen to be a creator.
I understand they are looking for, and want to obtain, ALL rights to everything no matter what. (I believe EA has something to do with this.)

I'm not buying this game, I'm waiting till MSTS2 hits the market before I make any real decisions.

Meanwhile, it's Trainz for me.

Cheers everyone.

Nope - Unfortunately bad news travels fast, even when it isn't correct .

Rod

Funny thing, I heard exactly that about Trainz, that they required official approval for freeware addons, and furthermore restricted uploads and downloads to their own website. Don't know if that's true, train-sim file library has a few Trainz downloads, but KRS has no restrictions on freeware.

http://uktrainsim.com/filelib-info.php?for...f6dd825ba678561

BTW, route editor for KRS is as easy as falling off a yard ladder!

Yep, Sniper has jumped into RS like a starving pig goes for the Gut Wagon (pardon my Okie metaphor). I've seen shots of his PO&N. He is OBVIOUSLY HAVING A BLAST!!!! Work accomplished so far proves what he says about easy of use.

I don't think we need to worry about either sim. There will be the REAL artists like Sniper who will pour out more content (free and pay) than most of us will be able to consume in several lifetimes.

Wonder what Rich Garber and Jim Ward have going?

sniper=jim ward

Content for RS? Don't count on it.

Counting on you and Marc, Scott, Andy, and others for MSTS-2 content thou.

Woops - - - forgot that.

Who the heck can keep up with all these names????

Actually I was thinking of Bob Wirth!!!

That you can count on!

http://www.german-railroads.eu/en/krs-gt1_t.html

Hello to you all from the UK,

Let me introduce myself.

My name is Derek Siddle and I am currently working on Rail Simulator.
I am new to this forum.

There are many addons currently in the pipeline and now that people have the tools and means to get thir work into the program we are seeing a large amount of community content being created.

I have nothing against MSTS or MSTS2, I have no reason either. I am here in a personal capacity and to provide information if people require it.

Not sure if I am welcome or not, but just thought I'd say hello.

Best regards

Derek

Funny how many of the people who have already made up their opinion about KRS being total junk haven't even tried it yet...

Derek,
I would like to welcome you to the community and from my part I will say that I am looking forward to KRS. I am willing to give it a shot before I knock it off.
I am sure there will be teething problems, but I dont see either Kuju or EA just dropping out and leaving us hanging. I am an optimist and I am sure sooner or later some people will make the transition towards developing more KRS stuff.
~Nick

Thanks Derek.

Welcome Derek, Perhaps you can keep us up to date with anything that becomes available for RS-USA. I know a lot of you folks have intersts in US rail so no doubt add-ons may be in the future.

Glad to have you aboard, Derek!

Cheers!
Marc

Well i have tried it and to be honest could have spent the money elsewhere, when Kuju with their knowlwdge of developing MSTS comes up with something that is so hard to use, where you cannot even do the simplest of jobs like choose a starting place from a drop down list, pick the time of day, the weather , the consist without having to go in and alter a scenario and which you cannot see more than a trains length ahead in the track monitor , so you cannot see what the switches ahead are lined up for , which in turn causes the sim to boot you out every time you go over one of the switches well i gave up, love the graphics but the control side of things sucks, i deleted it and shelved it

I downloaded the demo and ran it. I too was disappointed with the track monitor. It seemed so busy, I did not even notice that it did not look ahead very far.

Some questions for Derek or others:

The Demo had no tool tips as one hovers over an engine control. Took a while to find everything. I found no option to turn them on or off. Does the real package have such?

The demo engine had no out-the-window view left or right. Are engine files editable and can such things be added?

What does the entire package have the demo did not, operation wise?

I haven't played KRS, and I'm getting mixed reviews about it. Some say that it's already better than MSTS, other say don't waste your time on it. I haven't really decided if I'm going to get it or not. Right now my heart is set on MSTS-X because of the Multiplayer capability and the World of Rails, not to mention the awesome graphics. Those three things is what sold me on MSTS-X.

I may look at KRS when the US Version comes out. Hopefully they will have a Demo of the US Version.

I do that very thing with movies, plays, music, food and other things in life. Word of mouth is one of the best forms of advertising. After what all I have read about KRS, and all the bugs with MSTS I have a wait and see attitude toward it.

Can't help on the first question about the cab - I use the keyboard for everything and as almost everything has the same key input as MSTS I was away. The only control difference is that A and D are swapped (A = accelerate and D = decelerate) so someone uploaded a quick utility at UKTS that swapped them back to MSTS configuration and that was that.

I understand that support for Raildriver is coming soon and it'll be via API, not the screen-read workaround.

Second question about head-out view - that's one of the few differences. To get head-out in MSTS it's arrow key up or down. In RS arrow key up or down zooms the view. Left and right keys move you from one side of the cab to the other. To look around an RS cab, right-click the mouse and drag. To get the head-out view, press SHIFT + 2 and there you are: then once again right-click and drag to pan around.

The best view is view 8 - if you use it, you can fly wherever you like up to about a mile from your train so you can get ahead and do the 'MSTS view 4' thing but wait for the train to come, see it go by, wait for it to disappear into the distance.

The F3 window isn't ideal, but apparenetly it's being addressed in a patch. If you want to see the layout, go to view 9 which (to use MSTS vernacular) the equivalent of having the Activity Editor map viewable in-game in real time.

Are engine files editable - yep. In the downloads on the RS site you can get a blueprint editor that you use to change parameters.

I never played the demo, went straight to the game so I can't help on your question about what's not in the full game that's not in the demo.

Burgerbern is clearly frustrated with RS, that's a shame. For about a week I moaned and bitched about RS and then the penny dropped - THIS IS NOT MSTS2. That's right, you can't pick anywhere on the system to 'explore route'. The basic control similarities mislead you into thinking that everything is the same - it isn't. There are some things in MSTS that are better than RS. Period. But for every thing that's better in MSTS than RS, evenetually you'll find five things that are better in RS than MSTS. For example, the cab views are incredible. The graphics/eye candy are streets ahead. The ability to edit a route easily, in-game. The ability to zoom ahead to see that far-off signal. The smoke particles are a hundred times better. Oh, and it has crashed once since October.

I'm not uncritical of RS, as I say above I was deeply frustrated for a while. I suspect that for the first few weeks the forum boards will be full of anguish and bile as people have to lose some of the functionality of MSTS before they have discovered all the extra functionality in RS. I also think that people will be frustrated by the lack of add-ons compared to six years' worth of MSTS ones. But if you go to UKTS you'll see the tone has settled down a hell of a lot and on the front page there as I type this, out of the 16 most recent uploads eight are for MSTS and eight are for RS.

It's getting there, but recognize that a. ) it isn't perfect; b. ) leaving the emotional as well as technical/content baggage that we're all bringing from MSTS takes a while to get your head around; and c. ) at least these guys are talking to us.

Paul

PS and the best tip of all - I guarantee that next week the RS server on their 'official content' page will be under severe strain, so go there now and download the dev tools and any extra stock that takes your fancy!

Paul,
I have to admit that yours is probably one of the best and most level headed reply I have seen so far in what now seems like a huge flame war between the MSTS hardcores and RS optimists. I think we need to accept RS with a grain of salt and work on fixing those things that aren't perfect. I guess people fail to realize that this is just another piece of software and like any other software, there are changes that you need to work with and around. Heck there was this huge commotion every time a new version of windows/office/internet explorer came about but eventually everybody just settled down and it was accepted.
So, I am waiting and watching, and hopefully, the whole RS issue will settle down.
If not then MSTS lovers have that and RS will be out there for those who want to try it/have it.
Just my 2 cents in this seemingly growing sea of flame wars over RS.
~Nick

With you there, Nick - I'm happy to play MSTS with all the superb add-ons and refinements, equally happy to play RS - maybe I should flame myself? RS really needs that first patch due in the next few weeks to overcome the most obvious niggles such as the derail on trailing points that burgerbern mentioned (RS have confirmed they've fixed this) and being UK-based I can't wait for some of the payware that's coming along (see links below): but we just have to have an open mind, be constructively critical and be happy that RS and MSTS2 are giving our hobby a new lease of life.

Paul

Appendix: UK payware announcements for RS:
http://www.justtrains.net/developProduct.asp?pid=289
http://digitaltraction.net/joomla/index.ph...ge&Itemid=1

NB the Digital Traction site includes 11 free scenario downloads for RS

I was quite critical about KRS when I first got it back in October - I was particularly frustrated by the track monitor and derailments on points. However, after finding out about the 'view 9' track layout from the UKTS forums (this isn't well covered in the literature that came with the game), I'm now getting hooked; IMO, this makes for great switching activities with the ability to set paths at each reversing point, rather than switch by switch as for MSTS. I'm looking forward to see what scenarios will be included with the US content that make use of this functionality.

Another frustration I had was the lack of scenarios - however, a lot more are now becoming available and I find I'm now spending a lot more more time on KRS (probably still using MSTS more, but hey, that's 100+ routes against 4!). My advice would be stick with it - KRS is shaping up to be a great sim; it's just a pity that the initial launch resembled a large scale beta-test (please note that I don't level any criticism at the RS team for this - I know how launch deadlines are, and the support provided by Adam and Derek since has been exemplary!).

Regards,

Tim

PS IMO it's a pity that the route that's being omitted from the US launch is York-Newcastle - I think this is possibly the best route of the initial 4 with regard to scope for scenarios, given the location and time period modelled (but then again, I may be biased as someone who was growing up in the UK in the 70's!).

Hey, is this the RailSim forum? Been wondering when that hippie was gonna get around to making one, guess this will have to do for now.

Hmmm, questions, free play;

http://forums.flightsim.com/vbts/showthread.php?t=266814

Working that out now, upcoming patch is supposed to fix trailing point derailments, but the 2D map;

http://forums.flightsim.com/vbts/showthread.php?t=266206

Is better than that silly little F3 window anyway, I never use the F3 except to uncouple cars (and the front coupler for THIS one works out of the box!), since you can set multiple switches up to 2 miles ahead or behind in the 2D map.

USA routes, lessee here;

http://forums.flightsim.com/vbts/showthread.php?t=264108

RS Port Ogden & Northern, 53% more fun than Canton, contains no sticky pineapples, guaranteed to irritate Garber before his morning root beer.

Also have an unreasonable misbegotten misrepresentation of a Chicago mass transit route;

http://forums.flightsim.com/vbts/showthread.php?t=266755

So NOW can I discard MSTS? Fossilized remains are starting to stink up the place.

Hi Guys, sorry for not getting back sooner, had my hands full with family stuff.
Thanks for the welcome, I hope to spend my time posting on here and on the Uk forums. Mind you my wife may have somethign to say about that!


The interface does have tool tips and there is hang out the window camera [shift+2]

I agree there are a number of frustrations that have been address in the Upgrade. We have also tried to document everything we possibly can and the docs download will be expanded also.

regards

Derek