Troops:

Amazingly, here it is some 4-5 years AFTER the release of MSTS, and there is STILL a following. In fact, I would go so far as to say that it has, basically, carved out its own hobby niche.

Seeing as I have a few minutes before I need to leave for work, I thought I would prose a bit about the various aspects of this hobby, as well as ask how you, personally, "enjoy" this hobby.

The selection of product for MSTS has literally become overwhelming. The freeware sector is incredible in regards to the selection therein. GIGABYTES of product is available!!

The commercial sector is nowhere near as laden with product, but enough is available that it too, can cause indecision for the hobbiest wondering where to spend their hard-earned hobby dollars.

Speaking as a hobbiest (and not as a commercial developer), to me one of the greatest strengths of MSTS can also be one of its greatest weaknesses. That is, the ability to point/click and enjoy different railroads and regions.

For example...

Point/Click: You're out on the West Coast aboard a modern high speed freight powered by big GE's and EMD's.

Point/Click: You're tooling through New York state in a D&H Alco in the late 70's.

Point/Click: You're wrestling a steamer up to Fly Gap in the 1890's.

Amazing.

Yet, this strength can also be a weakness. It's takes hard drive space to do the above. A LOT of hard drive space. It takes a fairly capable machine to run some of the routes being released now.

For me, though, the biggest drawback: It takes TIME to set up routes and equipment needed to enjoy a route as a hobby.

I suspect TOO much selection on one's hard drive can cause stagnancy in that the items needed to be in place in to enhance the play value longevity of a route, are not in place. So, the hobby can become one of frustration as you have all this "stuff"... but haven't taken the TIME to organize it into a way you can truly enjoy it.

It's the "TIME" part that causes me the most trouble, and I suspect some of you.

So, I'd like to develop a strategy of sorts as to how I can better enjoy this hobby, and if it can help you to do likewise, then we've pummeled two birds with one stone. Now, my parameters for enjoying MSTS may be different than yours, so we'll have to pick and choose what would work between us. That is, what would work for me, and what would work for you.

Well, at least I've opened the door and stated where this thread is heading.

Unfortunately, I'm running out of time and got to go pretty soon, so for now I'll pass the torch to you and open this up. That said, now who'll step up first and share your approach to this hobby and how it has helped you enjoy it more?

Andre Ming
V Scale Creations

As you know there are many more dimensions to this hobby than just era and geography such that it is difficult to even characterize what participation is. There are operators, builders, business owners, collectors, and painters to name just a few. These participants would all differ on the parameters for enjoying the hobby.

Along these lines I would characterize myself as a historian and builder. My approach is probably not very common. I manage the enormity of the hobby through a very narrow focus – one route, and one era. I can pass by ( only with much will-power mind you ) models that are outside this focus. I derive ongoing interest and challenge from in-depth understanding of the subject and MSTS provides an excellent platform for this. Gaps in knowledge become readily apparent by the big blank areas that result on the route. In the virtual hobby environment its not just the major structures that get studied but now even the smallest trackshed demands some attention. And lest this narrow focus appears too confining, my subject railway connects with four other major lines all of which need to be researched and represented with appropriate models.

So my strategy is narrow focus on route and era and my parameters of enjoyment are around MSTS’s ability to provide a historically accurate recreation of that place and time.

Rodster here Andre - Time , amazingly, too much choice - those, for me are the biggest killers.

I don't have as many routes on my HD as some that I know, but there are more than enough to give me a bit of a problem. The way I have sorted this out for myself is to partition the HD containing my MSTS installation. Into the first partition, I put all those routes that I regularly run (all USA routes BTW) and into the second partition, those routes that I only run on the odd ocassion, if at all. That is my first slice out of the choice problem. My reason for doing this is as much a mental partitioning as physical, and that, for me, seems to work. All my MSTS "thoughts" get channeled through the first partition.

Within both partitions, I have then (very belatedly) set up mini installations - again, this is a way of restricting choice once I have made a decision on what type of route to run. Now I used to use Trainstore to do this (and I still have that linked into my main MSTS installation, which is my testbed), but I found that I would open up trainstore and be faced with, then, about 20 + routes, some of which never got used, but which still, each time I looked, took up thought time ("will I run it or not"). This is a small saving, but by relegating all of these routes to the second partition, I have removed this indecision period (and saved time!).

The same stands true for the mini installations - I have;

V Scale TOC (Contains tha Magnus Opus of a certain Coonskin)
V Scale Diesel (waiting for the Rock Island Route Andre )
Cajon_TP2 (is what it says, but now with 2 Cajon's installed )
LPS (the first, and this is the only route on this installation)
Canton (Rich's original with Dick's stock)
Canton (With Dean's stock)
Canton (Anywhere America, with a mix of Gaetan's stock)
Cumberland
Whitefish
MLT Bridge Line
Streamlines

and not forgetting

Train Simulator (Which still contains Sandpatch, another copy of the A&O Sub used for Gaetan's photo shoots plus a number of other routes that I haven't got round to moving to the second partition!)

Working this way I generally find that I am able to restrict my choice, and make quicker decisions about what to run. But the biggest decider for me is enduring atmosphere and overall realism. If a route has it, I will run it.

But what do I then do when I run the route. Well 3 things;

1. Look for good photo ops - and in this I don't just mean a full on shot of the front of an engine taken with a telephoto lens on a length of bare track. I mean real photo ops, where there will be a fair degree of realism or interest. ("Did I ever tell you that I liked to take photos, I didn't, well hey, let me show you my album.....")

Well this restricts the routes I run for a start - they are all up there in my main partition mini installations. There are a number of very well known payware routes that are in the second partition.... Nice stock though.

2. Short switching "play" where I will run a few cars through a few moves - this is reall tied into 1 above, where I will be very choosy about where this is done and will be on the lookout for a few shots.

3. Long haul on the bigger routes - now this is where I just don't have any time, so I set it up this way - I make myself an Introductory Ride, say from Barstow to San Berdoo, complete with stock in spurs etc. but probably without AI, then I set it running after unchecking the different views box. I will then go about doing other chores, popping into the computer room every 15 minutes or so just to see where I have got to - it is great fun, I will sometimes stop for 5 minutes or so to take a few shots (have to photoshop out the green type after ) but mostly I just enjoy the scenery.

Phew - got to stop - I haven't even got on to the problem of modding routes yet ( a long list - StL&NA, Canton, Sandpatch, Bridge Line, Niagara, new Cajon) and how to fit this in or even get near completing it....for another day.

Off to run a few trains - my latest (following a lot of maxing out on new Cajon), a bit of switching at Fort Gridley with my repaint of Marc's DRGW Geep 9 into a USAX Geep 9.

Over to the next

Rod.

Hi Andre,

What i enjoy about MSTS is just playing around in the sim, nothing serious, i have my favorite loco's that i like to run in the different routes that i have installed and i spend just about as much time on a few forums like this one being able to learn what i can and talking to people like yourself as i do in the sim,

I am lucky in that i retired in October this year so i have the time to enjoy the sim now, something i did not have when i was working, i live in the UK and i have been interested in US railroads for many years, in fact since the 1960's, mainly as a model railroader ,

Due to moving to a smaller house and having to finish running my layouts, MSTS has given me back the feeling of having one again, only more so,

I am really enjoying your A&O Sub at the moment ,anyway i'm sorry to bore you all ,

All the best,

Dodger.

My route selection is simple cascade, TP with Marcs enhancement , Donner and in the east Sand Patch, and the Bridgeline. Then in the everywhere catagorey A&O and Canton these are the best of the many I have purchased and or downloaded. The only problem I have is finding a complete equipment set for the B&O and U.P. for the time frame I prefer. This is late 1950's foreward there need to be F's and E's and PA's for the U.P.. Then for the B&O and W.M. high hood early geeps and S.D.'s all need to be off the 3d trains Gatean quality and life will be good.

My MSTS interests just followed my Model RRing interests: early 20th century RRs and narrow gauge. Therefore, my choice of mini-routes is simple.
Andre's North Arkansas and Jon Davis' stock for T-O-C steam
Wayne C's London & Port Stanley as a 1920s shortline.
and most recently
Don Karch's Colorado & Southern, T-O-C narrow gauge.
and the lone odd-ball:
The A&O to run Gaetan B's vintage Alcos (as modern as I ever want to be!)

What is great about MSTS is that it took me years and years to build a small narrow gauge yard that covered the area of about 2 football fields, with limited running possibilities. Now, with MSTS, I have entire railroads to run, with sound, in-cab and in-caboose views and lineside photo ops. Plus, it's a fraction of the price!

How do I enjoy MSTS? Oh, I like building stuff. Routes in particular are fun to do as I really enjoy research and creating stuff. Wish I was better at making terrtexes and I'm really behind the curve on 3d Cad... still using TSM and keeping things simple.



A couple of thoughts on this hobby in general.

To make V-Scale an equal to model railroading IMO we need an open source sim engine. The commercial stuff is great but each one will eventually become unsupported and then obsolete dues to changes in MS Windows. Getting around the unsupported state is what open source might solve, assuming there is always interested programmers. If you think it thru, the underlying game engine would not change very much over time... it's the graphics UI that will change and if history is any guide, it will change frequently. Absent an open source solution there will always be a loss over time of what's been accomplished as the game software "dies".

Freeware models needs to move towards distribution of source code (i.e., the cad files). The benefits to the community would be large as various parts get reused (or upgraded). The downside would be a loss of control... but it's not like there is anything other than pride involved. There's no way to compel folks to do that but if you think about for a sec there's no reason why distributing freeware cad files should not be the norm.

Multiuser over networks has to happen. W/o it, train simming will be 80% watch it go, 20% (at best) play a scenario. Introduce multiplayer and the hobby will add a whole new dynamic that should equal model railroading as we know it.

Lastly, always getting a better graphics engine will have a detremental effect over time. There just are not enough people in the hobby who have enough artistic talent to stand up to the visual inspections that will occur as the graphics get better and better. This will tend to weed out lesser artists as well as older models -- perhaps another reason why distributing cad files is a good idea as then you can edit at the part level for skinning rather than be constrained to an existing skin mapping.

Just food for thought.

Simply put, I use it as a substitute for my model railroading days of yesterday. It doesn't take up half the basement or garage.It doesn't suffer damage from the cat hopping up on it, it doesn't require alot of set up, dusting and maintenence.

Where else can you by a fleet of locomotives for 12 to 25 bucks? Where else can you by an entire trainset for 12 to 25 bucks. Try pricing all your trains at your local hobby shop and you'll fall out of the chair.

While it does come with a cost such as the PC, sound and video upgrade cards, commercial routes, etc, it still seems to me to make the most sense. Besides, you can't climb in your model train cabs and go for a run like you can in the virtual world.

Sometimes it bores me to death and I stay away, especially in the summer when the weather is nice. But for now with the snow, fog and rain you will find me on the PC. (Atleast til the Bears are on tonite )

Hmm. My approach to this hobby...

My interests vary depending on the day (and probably the hour), so I could say that I have a lot of approaches. But I guess that my most fundamental approach is learning and building. I started out with an interest in trying to re-create the long-gone Chili Line, because my great-grandfather was the engineer on the last revenue run on that route back in 1941. To do that, I had to learn how to build routes, which took me into the RE . Because there was a lot of info available on the Cumbres & Toltec RR, I used that as my tutorial. That got me into researching the key routes from Antonito - on to Durango and down to Santa Fe. That research by itself has been enormously rewarding, but something that I probably never would have done without MSTS.

Of course to build the routes, I had to learn about digital elevation models, 3D modeling programs, and graphics programs. That led me into terrain textures and how to create new ones and the possibilities of using programs like Google Earth. All of which were interesting in their own right.

Some days, though, I just like to run trains. I've greatly enjoyed the StL&NA and the A&O (still the only payware routes I've got), and again, it's taught me a ton about how railroads work. Some days I feel pretty silly - would I go out and buy a program called "Delivery Simulator"? Probably not, but that's pretty much the essence of railroading on the short lines. Even so, I know a huge amount more regarding railroads and railroading. Whether I'll ever use that knowledge or not, who knows? More recently I've tied together runs on the several Santa Fe routes to make the run from LA to Trinidad (just under 24 hours, including a couple of hour stops), just to see what that is like.

I think as long as I keep learning, MSTS will stay interesting. If it ever becomes just a game of looking at the graphics and hitting a few keys, I'll drop it. But I don't think I'm close to that point, and if people keep adding to the game, it'll be quite a while before I get there.

I'm what must be called a casual MSTS user/player. I find switching the most interesting so I'll always choose a switching activity over a mainline run. I have no idea how railroads are supposed to operate nor do I know what livery belongs where or in what era so it doesn't much matter to me what skin is on what equipment. I'll use equipment that look, sound and perform like I think they should but without knowing or caring whether they are in fact faithful to their RW counterparts.

I do find that I need to have a goal or purpose when I sit down to drive a train. I find no pleasure in using explore mode or the various explore mode activities. I much prefer to have a printed work order at the outset. For some reason I don't much care to run an activity I've devised either. Perhaps this is because by the time I've worked out all the AI timings et al, I've become sick of it.

Let me say, up front, that for me the medium has never been the message. I love trains. I love operation, switching, dispatching, everything. I love just looking at them. I had my first wind up train at 2 and my first Lionel at 5. HO came at 13. The narrow gauge bug bit at 15 and I was hand laying HOn3 before the year was out.

But again, the medium has never been the message. Whatever scale or gauge or medium lets me most enjoy the hobby of railroading is where you will find me. I will not champion any scale or vendor. I’m here to run trains. For the moment, the best all around experience is MSTS.

I have long had two railroad loves: My native San Diego home road, the Atchison, Topeka and Santa Fe; the Rio Grande Southern of southwestern Colorado.

I think the Santa Fe represents the best of Class One railroading in the era when it meant something. They were a class act in every regard. I love the stainless steel Chiefs and San Diegans but their entire passenger service was magnificent to behold. And they moved some freight! I have always enjoyed switching and branch line activity and the Santa Fe of the 50s and 60s had it everywhere.

The Rio Grande Southern is, for me, the epitome of the narrow gauges. To quote the late Lucious Beebe, “Here were concentrated all the basic realities of mountain railroading in primeval times: Rights of way cleaving to ledges above the bottomless abyss, snowsheds, loops, stub switches, the little mixed train daily and the teapot locomotives, driven against all probability and the elements by the old bearded eagle-eyes of legend.” It was built where it shouldn’t have been, when it shouldn’t have been, and it went dead broke after the first three years. It then stumbled on for sixty more years just to make sure it hadn’t missed anything. There is something about that tenaciousness in the face of bankruptcy, four-percent grades and mountains of snow that truly appeal to me.

Now having said that these are my two favorite railroads, let me say that I also enjoy every railroad that connected with the Santa Fe, particularly the wretched old Southern Pacific. The same holds true for the RGS, particularly and solely the Dangerous and Rapidly Growing Worse, the sometimes parent and sometimes foe to the RGS and always a source of rented power and freight cars, much to the credit of their bottom line.

Electrics and trolleys have never done a thing for me. Until recently. But that’s all Tim Muir’s fault and a story unto itself…..

So what is a person with a love of railroads to do? Go to work for them or model them. Eyes weren’t good enough to get into train service so the model path was set. Looking back, I am glad it worked that way. Railroad careers are killers to families and home life and besides, best way to kill a hobby is to go to work in it. Period.

So I modeled. I modeled every scale but Z and TT. And, as you can well imagine, since this lifelong hobby has been going now for 59 years since the first wind up train, I have amassed a lot of books and information about my favorite roads. I love employee timetables and the associated paperwork of the operations end of the railroad. All these things help me to run the trains the way the big boys did it!

But modeling in brass and plastic and basswood has never given me the satisfaction I have received through virtual railroading and the various freeware and payware suppliers of routes and trains. My favorites are the Santa Fe and the RGS but I like ‘em all! I can have ‘em all in virtual scale.

I currently have 12 – count ‘em – 12 Santa Fe routes running from San Diego, LA and Bakersfield nearly all the way to Colorado and a few chunks beyond into Chicago. I have one more joint line with the SP (Tehachapi Pass II) for a total of 13 Santa Fe routes. Some of these are public knowledge and some are not. Additionally, I have one SP (Donner Pass), one Rio Grande standard gauge (Rollins Pass), the A&O Sub and the N.E. Corridor IV for an occasional Pennsy jaunt. All of these are in my primary Train Simulator folder, sharing common equipment and accessed through Train Store for rapid access and deployment.

Then there are the Mini’s. I currently have 13 routes set aside in mini’s. Mini routes have been created for narrow gauge, traction and turn of the century or other period operations that use unique equipment: RGS, Cumbres, Silverton, Eureka & Palisade, Sumpter Valley and a couple other yet to be revealed narrow gauges, St. Louis & North Arkansas, a late steam/early diesel Carriso Gorge and all my electric routes are in this group. Now the new C&S route is drawing my attention, particularly with the new engines coming from Captain Bazza!

This dual setup has worked out the best for my eclectic tastes in trains. I can run the mainlines with common equipment and the mini’s with their unique trains and settings. I started to do a mini for Santa Fe but decided against it just because of the magnitude of all the Santa Fe routes.

I like to run ‘em and just watch ‘em. I like to switch ‘em. I can spend hours in an industrial area. I also am increasingly enjoying modifying – kitbashing, if you will – various equipment to meet specific needs. If it isn’t produced I’ll find a way to make it. I have yet to jump into 3D modeling but I’m sure it isn’t too far off.

Time. Yes, that is a big factor. Too many trains and not enough time. Most of my train time is late evening after the family has gone to bed. I like to spend my time with them after work and on weekends so the trains have to wait until the late hours. I seldom sleep for more than 6 hours or so and it works out nicely, getting a couple hours each night to play with the toys.

With Virtual Scale: You never have to turn around at the end of the room; you never have to clean track; you never have to crawl under the benchwork and run wires; you never have to dust the trains and buildings; you never have to slop plaster. As pointed out elsewhere, Virtual Scale is a lot less expensive than brass and plastic modeling. I have 10 K36s for the cost of a download and a little detail work. In Sn3 that set of engines alone would cost me $25,000. In Virtual Scale I can have the entire Rio Grande Southern from Ridgway to Durango and the Telluride Branch – I don’t have to pick which little vignette I’m going to model. Same for the Santa Fe. Eventually we’ll have it all! I can do justice to a mainline railroad in Virtual Scale and not have to apologize for the lack of running space.

I like it. I’m in it. I’m staying in it until there is a better medium. Then, perhaps, I will move on. Maybe not. At 61 years of age I might just settle down with this one. Until that decision day, hard drives are cheap (I have 380 Gig installed) and so is memory. Bin1.6 has opened new avenues of enjoyment. If Vista leaves MSTS behind I’ll stay with XP-Pro. I’m in it for the long haul.

Man am I long winded!

Herb, you've said the bits I left unsaid in my own "essay" - Andre, add Herb's to mine please

Rod

Thanks Rod. And OBTW, I like to take shots and share too!

Dear Friends,

What I enjoy most is to get as close to running the real thing as possible in a sim. I like to run a grade with 3 GP50's, get wheel slip, then pour on the sand only to have it stall out pulling up the grade.

Then change out the GP50's for 3 SD50's, get wheelslip, pour on the sand and make the grade at 2mph.

Or, apply the dynamics, get engine wheelslip, and need to apply sand for traction. Or, apply the engine brake too hard and skid the engine wheels.

Don't get me wrong, I don't try to operate poorly. I just like knowing that when I do something wrong, MSTS won't be too forgiving. It makes it quite a challenge.

I only wish that couplers would break prototypically when too much force is applied.

Yours truly,
Leland

Your right there 100% Herb, I couldn't agree with you more.

Now go take a breath

What, that I'm long winded?

But seriously, I have thought a lot about this today while tinkering with things here at work. There is just no way in creation to do any kind of justice to a Class 1 road in a model railroad. But in the sim you can have it all. I think the idea that you don't have to turn around at the end of the room is probably the most salient point of the whole exercise.

Wow! Talk about some perspectives! Thanks so much guys for taking the time to share what your MSTS hobby is for you.

I will say that I still enjoy SOME hands-on modeling... but not much. Model railroading can only treat you to miniature trains running through miniature scenes with some condensed switching thrown in if desired.

No way can you wrestle with the weight, or adhesion, or manage your air, or... you get the idea... that this sim can give you. Model railroading and sim railroading are two totally different aspects to me.

What I am hoping to do with my MSTS is take the time to create plausible mini-installs that group my MSTS interests into managable mini's so I can enjoy "whatever" when the mood hits. For development purposes, I will have to keep my main install "Global add-on" free. (i.e. no XTracks, ScaleRail, NewRoads, etc.)

Development is not really a hobby any longer, now it is often like work. However, if I can find the time/disipline to do what I've just discussed, I have a feeling it will go a loooong way toward helping me derive some enjoyment from MSTS as a hobby.

One of the biggest bottlenecks I see for this hobby is: Activities.

We have a good selection of routes, equipment, you name it. What we DON'T typically find in the freeware sector is goodly numbers of activities for our chosen routes. Activities are a real pain in the a... er, backside... to produce, and IMHO, that is the reason there are so few of us that do it.

It would be GREAT if lots of others in the MSTS hobby would tackle producing solid, low-hassle activities.

By "low hassle" I mean keeping additional downloads to a minimum. In regards to commercial routes, this can easily be accomplished by using the supplied equipment as much as possible. Not so easy with freeware "no equipment supplied" routes.

Well, all for now.

Andre Ming

Andre:

I hear ya about the Activities issue.

After running several routes, the first thing I got "into" in MSTS was Activity writing. I came through the learning curve with Rich G's tutorials, and wrote a few activities for another (not V-Scale Creations) route. After running a number of activities for a very common FW route, I found them to be more of a "puzzle to solve" than a typical, RRing assignment; it seemed that if you didn't make the right move at the right time, you'd never be able to complete the Activity. I figured that in RL, there would be many ways to complete the work assignment so I tried to leave some flexibility in my Activities and not create unrealistic and tricky "situations".

Once I published them, I saw so little interest in running them that I decided to move-on to learning TSM and model building. After all, I'd built many models in On2 from craftsman kits and from scratch that model-building should be easy. Well . . . that's when I learned about the dreaded poly-count demon! Too many details = too many polys and the model brings MSTS to its knees! So now it became a trade-off between actual details and artwork, and when to use each approach. I'm still in this phase and learning as I go.

IMO, Activities don't take much longer than a good TSM model. Yeah, I had to run 'em over and over and over again (boring) to be sure they worked and make sure they wouldn't "blow-up" if the user didn't exactly follow my "script". Yeah, the Activity works great if the engineer arrives at West Overshoe on-time; but what'll it do if he's slow and arrives 30 minute late??? It's gotta allow for some variations by the user(s) and not lockup or become totally goofy.

OTOH, TSM models take longer than I plan; there's always another part to build or a texture to find or create. Creating parts from the TSM primatives is more fun for me than doing texturing.
But, I'm an engineer by profession, not an artist. Building parts, cars, and structures accurately and to-dimensions is a piece-o-cake; a good photo-texture is worth it's weight in gold. In short, my original artwork sux and I'm NEVER happy with the result.

Looks like I'm long-winded too . . . gettin' late, time to crash.

Thanx for listening . . . .

Ah yes, activities. I have to say that the St.L&NA activities that you did, Andre, have been some of the most fun and rewarding of any I have tried. There is a real "railroad feel" about them and they are outright fun.

Many of the activities for other routes get too bogged down in the "gotta get to point A by such and such" as Tom pointed out that they become tedious, or don't work at all if you take time to stop and throw switches or pump up and test air and the other little nuances of real railroad operation that, for me, are so enjoyable.

Another problem for me that usually keeps me in "explore" mode is that if I run a specific activity I always have to pick up the same cars and set out the same cars at the same old places. Run it twice and you're bored with it. The problem with explore mode is that there is nothing out there to start with. You can start off with a huge amount of cars and go out and place them then run a local to work them and keep saving but there is the problem of darkness falling and having to leave the sim running for 10 to 12 hours so you can start over the next morning! Even if you successfully get one of these saved explore's going, if you change any car in the original consist the whole scenario fails to load and is out the window. Pun intended.

What I would like to see, and what I someday hope to sit down and build using AE, are totally open ended switching activities. My goal is to create an activity with cuts of cars appropriately placed at the various industries on a route with no specific work orders requiring the pick up and set out of cars. The activity would have the ability to plug in a local freight consist of my choice and just go out and work the various spurs, making up the pick up - set out decisions as you proceed from one end of the line to the other. No times constraints to have to meet or exceed, just pure switching with infinite variety of possibilities in what could be worked or not from one end of the line to the other.

All of this may be possible but I am just unfamiliar enough with AE that I don't know. I tried to do this on the RGS route and got really frustrated by the first switch out of Ridgway. Although in explore mode the east wye switch at Ridgway was free usage, in the activity it would not throw manually and I couldn't figure out how to set it to free use. My first move of the activity was to back my twin K-27 powered freight out of Ridgeway, turn on the wye and head off to Rico. Of course I couldn't do it because the wye switch wouldn't throw for the route. That was the last time I built an activity. Probably just tried to do too much without enough knowledge or time to experiment.

I think I just figured out a topic for another thread.........

I direct your attention to Steve Davis's Activity Generator which does just that (well, it constructs a work order for you). That is, once you've built up a template which is an art all in itself. See Activity Generator. It works great, I highly recommend it.

I understand Train Store can do something similar to what you want (populate explore mode with wagons), but I've never tried that.

Hello all,

Count me in as another frustrated model railroader that became satisfied train simmer courtesy of MSTS. I've got enough kits, track, engines and rolling stock to build a logging layout, but not the space nor the time to build my empire. I've belonged to clubs that never quite got to the operation (switch list/timetable) stage and became a venue to run a favorite train around the room until someone else wanted to run something. A lot of potential but short on execution.

As was pointed out earlier, it was the message that counted, not the medium. I love to run trains. Period. Fire up the 'puter after work and unwind by running trains and watching them snake across the countryside. I try to help all developers by buying their product and have a good selection of routes to choose from. And have less money tied up in software than the cost of a good brass engine.

The A&O tops my short list of what I run most often. Design and execution are outstanding: a roller coaster of a line that makes you stay on top of what you are doing. I once had a cut of cars start rolling while doubling a train into Urbanette. A couple of handbrakes were set, but the cars started rolling when I didn't handle the slack quite right while uncoupling. I finished setting out the front half, then took off for the back half that I had watched slowly rolling away. When I finally found them, they had rolled clear through Freeman and finally stopped at the first grade crossing north!

As for activities, I'll second the call to check out Activity Generator and they already have a template for the A&O. It's easy to set up, fills the world with railcars, and prints out a switch list. I'm currently working one that has taken me two hours to get to Junction, heading for Urbanette!

I'm here for the long haul (short lines, too) as long as guys like Andre are willing to spend their time building stuff that would take me forever figure out and build.

Thanks for your time,

Jim

A few words on MSTS. I got it when it first came out and I still enjoy it today. I am like Mr Campbell, in that I am a historian ( or try to be ) in a specific place and time period. MSTS does that in an easy way whereas to do that in any other scale would be cost and space prohibitive. MSTS Bin has been a great addition to the program, making it a lot more realistic to operate in my opinion. For me its a way to preserve a bit of my childhood, when I would sit and watch long freights rumble past my house, and also to preserve a bit of a mostly forgotton and abandon route.
Mike

I'll chime in here too

When I first started out in MSTS, I was grabbing as many things as I could, routes, rolling stock, activities, and whatnot. My MSTS install was up to around 60GB, and my folder of downloads was close to 30 GB. The thing I got fed up with was errors. I spent about 3 times as much time running ConBuilder fixing errors and tweaking sounds and cabs and whatnot as I did actually running. What a pain!

Then I decided to whack everything (except my downloads folder) and start over fresh, slowing putting things back on as I decided to use them, of course having to go through the exercise of fixing all the errors again - didn't like that either.

I'm now on my 3rd clean install of MSTS. All I have installed besides all the default stuff is my 3 MLT routes, the LTV/Erie Mining route (which needs some serious rehab), MLT's BN Heritage pack, and my own WCRR route and equipment (available over at www.train-sim.com - what a shameless plug ). I'd also like to pick up SLI's Scenic Sub (as it traverses some of the same territory as my own WCRR), and the A&O, but funding is short for me at the moment, and I'm actually in progress on two prototypical routes. I'm having much more fun running the trains and building routes than I was fixing all those darned errors. When I release equipment and/or routes, I try to make sure that they are as error free as possible (but then again, everyone makes mistakes), and I do that just so the people who are installing and running my routes and equipment don't have to spend hours fixing the things I should have caught.

I think the one thing that would have helped the MSTS hobby is if everyone would have agreed on some sort of standarization when it comes to file naming and organizing, because sometimes you just can't ID a piece of equipment by it's filename - they're almost cryptic and easily confused with another piece of equipment. The only way to do that now would be to start completely over. The other thing that I find to be a major pain is when searching for new activities, it's hard to tell what route a lot of the activities are for. The activity designers need to be more specific, not just to the route, but to the version of the route that the activity is for.

Sorry for the book I just got on a roll

OK, Jim, grab your rule book and keys and drop 'em on the Super's desk. You're on the street for 30!

Really good input, guys! Thanks a bunch.

Jim: LOL! Gotcha! I'm sure you know this, but for the sake of all, there is a way to emulate "bustin' the air" on a cut to be left on a grade in MSTS:

1. Once stopped, apply a heavy train brake set (or, "draw'em down good 'n tight" to use the hillbilly nomenclature we often use around these parts).

2. Uncouple where desired. (Uncoupling stops the airflow in MSTS.)

3. Release and ease forward with the cut you're going to hold onto.

The cut will stay put... like busting the air on the prototype! Of course, on the prototype, you still have to crank down sufficient brakes if the cut is to be left unattended for a prolonged period. Not so MSTS, as I recall.

Mike Deming: How is your CGW route project coming along? Haven't heard hide nor hair from you in ages. FWIW: While loaned out in Winfield KS last month, I saw a nicely preserved 36' covered hopper in service STILL lettered for the CGW!! Believe it or not, sitting there in the cab watching that car roll by... I thought of you and your CGW route!

Andre

I think I have seen that hopper as well, it seems to appear in the Dekalb area every so often in a string of covered hoppers that I guess are used in ballast or mow service. Also if you keep a sharp eye out there are stilla couple of the CGW NE style cabooses being used, one I See every now and then on a crane train. As to the CGW project, well its an ongoing thing, trouble is real life gets in the way as I have software project that are more demanding and since they bring in money I devote the lions share of my time to them, so MSTS has taken a real back burner.

Sorry to drop in unexpected like but in case you don't wander around here too much you may have missed my post here and the pic's I posted of a CGW tanker I saw in November in West Chicago Illinois.

Just braggin' a bit but it pertains either way. Which leads me to the question of the day,...

"Any pictures of this old stuff besides mine?????"

Andre,

Yeah, I had set the air, but the train rolled backwards and once you couple, the air is restored(?) and be'ins how F9 was still open, I uncoupled again. Oops. I never thought they would go so far and kept waiting for a derail end-of-game!

Herb,

Can I just sit in the corner for a while?

Jim

Oh all right. But slap yerself a cupple times.

I got a copy of MSTS shortly after it came out and I ran the original routes fairly extensively but I admit that it was MLT's KHP that got me hooked. I lived in Western Canada most of my life and I spent many hours travelling through the Rockies. I've always loved the mountain routes and over the years I combined my love of trains with a love of history and much of this came together in MSTS. I messed around with downloaded stuff for a long time and slowly decrypted the internal workings of .eng and .wag files, learned how .ace files could be generated and modified and over time acquired the tools to start making my own models.
There are many great models out there but often these haven't been of things I was interested in. I finally decided to make my own models and I tended to do things that I felt were historical and/or rare. I have tried to do things that noone else has done where possible and that was where the UA Turbo Trains and the Port Stanley Terminal Rail GE 25t came from. Or I've wanted a model of something that had been done but wasn't quite right for what I wanted to do leading to my CP/CLC/Fairbanks-Morse models. And of course people have asked me to do a model of something and it has peaked my interest such as some of my GP9s.
The one thing I've really not been able to do yet is make my own routes. The RE defies my understanding and patience. One day I will either figure it out or I will do what I want in another sim. I had been hoping for the Trainmaster sim but now I'm contemplating KRS. Who knows what I'll end up with. I have been hoping to build even a little part of the Kettle Valley Railway and I've done a lot of preliminary work on the Coquihalla Sub but I have yet to get past the terrain generation and some markers.
Meanwhile I have at least made the main locomotives for that area and one day I hope to run them on those long gone tracks again.

The Kettle Valley is a fascinating piece of railroad. I'm sure someone will do that one in due time. That is one of the beauties of this sim thing, you can run on long gone routes and really see what it was like. My adventures on the Rio Grande Southern fit that pattern and are very rewarding.

Man, I go out of the country for a week and look at what I miss. This is a very interesting thread that Andre has started. Like Herb, I have had a love affair with the iron horse for 58 of my 62 years. During that time I have spent time with the prototype, even got close to working for the Western Maryland shortly after I got married, but didn't want to move. I have also spent summers in my late teens firing a steam locomotive for a tourist road every weekend.

From a young age I was interested in model trains, starting with O Scale and then over time going to S, HO and finally N some years before relocating to Florida 16 years ago. Each change was to try and get more railroad in the all to small amount of available space. Florida is a NBNA (No Basement - No Attic) state and as a result I tried to negotiate with the Superintendent of Right-of_Way (the wife), the use of part of the garage. Once the negotiations were over I started the planning of a new layout (N Scale of course to get the most out of a very limited amount of real estate) that never came to fruition. Instead I found MSTS and almost immediately realized the advantages of yet another scale change, this time to V Scale. Think of it, a 150 mile long mainline with no selective compression, plus countless other railroads, TOC, Trolley, Narrow Gauge, and on and on in less than 6 square feet!!!!!!!!!!

From an early age I had a love affair with two class 1's, the Best & Only, (B&O) and the Wild Mary, (WM), but my main love has always been the little short line with loads of atmosphere, the Maryland & Pennsylvania RR..







I always seem to be drawn to the short lines over the class 1's, perhaps part of the reason was because the Ma&Pa ran past the back of my yard for a few years before we moved and it was the north bound train every morning that served as my alarm clock every morning. Perhaps also because an uncle work for the Ma&Pa and my grandfather worked for the local trolley system that the railroad bug bit early and hard!! The Ma&Pa as long as I knew her struggled through in an air of gentile poverty and was more like a 12:12 model railroad than many of today's short lines, with grades and curves that were in a number of places steeper and more severe than the Colorado Narrow Gauge roads and readily showed the Ma&Pa's narrow gauge roots.

MSTS gives me the ability to model an entire shortline, end to end, without any selective compression, something impossible on even the largest of model railroads. My MSTS installation is divided up between a main installation that contains the mainline routes I like along with a few Payware routes that have caught my interest, (this installation is run by Train Store), and also a series of mini installs that are made up of:
1. Andre's two excellent routes.
2. Wayne Campbell's L&PS.
3. One for several narrow gauge route.
4. One for selected trolley routes including some not released.
5. One for my shortline Piedmont Northern.
6. One for several routes being tested and modified.

I have many of the same interests as both Herb and Rod and a severe time constraint that limits me to about an hour or so of selective activities, (train running, repainting, route alteration, etc.), as time permits very early in the morning. For picture taking and operation I like the ability of Train Store in simple mode to use the static consists and even AI traffic from any activity of that particular route I have chosen that day to be used in explore mode. Allows for some nice picture taking opportunities and especially some very interesting operation with the player consist of your choice. This allows me to indulge in one facet of physical model railroading that I came to dearly love - prototype operation emulation. Then there is also Activity Generator that can generate endless varied activities for any given route that a template is available for and the consists generated for these activities can also be used by train store. A great program in my way of thinking, third after Conbuilder and Route Riter.

So, what does all this do? It makes making a choice of what to do on my hobby time all the more difficult, that's what!!! But it does allow me to have quite a variety of choices depending upon the mood I may be in when it is time for hobby activities. So, to me MSTS is the best of all model railroad scales, and it is one scale that I doubt that I will ever switch from again.

Paul

Bingo!

But then again, the London Yards of the L&PS would make a great little 12 x 20 switching layout ... help me be strong and resist the temptation!

I was looking at a great little portable HO traction layout at the latest train show here in San Diego a couple of weeks ago. If anything would ever deter me in this hobby it would be building wire in the brass and plastic scales! What artistry in bronze and brass! And it worked flawlessly.

But they still had to turn around at the end of the room!

Hey Wayne,

Is the track layout screens from 3rd Planet?

Rich

Hi Rich

The 'layout' images are MSTS screenshots. Its a 'micro-route' I have been experimenting with to represent a potential model railroad layout in MSTS. A bit of a reverse scenario from the normal MSTS application but it is fun to evaluate how a potential layout might work.

Wayne

Ya got me on that one Wayne. But isn't all that white a bit blinding when you're driving in the sim then? Or do you plan to put up some kind of backdrop? Cool idea though.

Rich

I think his idea is to translate the MSTS version to an actual model railroad layout. At least that's what I understood. It's a great idea for those who'd like to see what their layout would look like before spending hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars putting a layout together. I suppose I might try something like that myself when the time comes to build my garden railway.

And just think, if they see what their layout will look like in the sim they will also see the possibilities of the sim and will probably convert.

Hey all, my micro-route experiments actually relate back to Andre's original comments about sharing strategies for enjoying the hobby. The hobby can be overwhelming - so many routes, so many engines, so many era etc. I meantioned that my strategy is to keep the focus narrow. As I take my route to a finer and finer level of detail, even the 24 miles of the L&PS can be overwhelming. I found I can concentrate better on the fine detail by 'eliminating' the rest of the route. It seems more manageable and somehow more enjoyable to super detail this micro-route - rather than having the full expanse of the entire line taunting me with the impossibility of the task. I think its akin to the model railroad experience where the basement empire builder eventually tires of the enormity of the task and eventually abandons the hobby - where as those taking on a smaller project enjoy it more. I have always been a fan of Carl Arendt's view of the model railroad hobby (http://carendt.us ) and the micro-route is the MSTS equivalent.

I actually enjoy switching this little micro-route. I have some software that generates switch lists etc - and scheduled traffic is represented by AI trains that exit and enter from 'staging' areas according to the actual L&PS timetable. With all the sidings and industries so close together, the action is a little faster - less running from place to place and more switching. The minimal nature of the route makes for excellent frame rates and gives me headroom to drill down to even finer detail on the construction. And to answer Rich's question, the white void isn't distracting. I stay low to the ground or in the locomotive and don't really notice it at all. The micro-route is not actually separate from the L&PS route - its just that the rest of the tiles are disabled in software. I have a small program that 'turns-on' the entire route when I want. But in the four or so months I have been working on this, I haven't had the urge to run the rest of the route.

Its narrow focus taken to the extreme - a different strategy for enjoying the hobby.


Wayne

Its refreshing to read that others have recognized the ability to be overwhelmed by the availability of routes and equipment in TrainSim. Even making the choice of what train to run could easily become a burden.
In the past I've complimented Andre for his choice of relatively short routes that make it possible to learn the route and operate a train completely in a reasonable amount of time -- my attention span isn't good for an actvity that could take 8 or 9 hours to complete. As model railroaders, we had to deal with compressing the prototype into the space we had available. Some folks chafe at the thought that an end to end run might take only a few minutes and set out to build double-decker or triple-decker layouts. I think running on a long TrainSim route a few times might enlighten them of the true virtues of relative compression. The same holds true with the "compression" on Andre's routes. Most of us don't have the hours to devote to imitating what professionals spend long work days doing. A short route gives us the chance to deal with switching, grades, etc. within a time frame that we can handle.
I remain an active modeler and busy at work on my layout, the South Ozark Lines. Long ago I realized that what I really enjoy is the process of planning and building rather than the final product. In virtual modeling, my interests have likewise been active, focusing on learning the physics of steam locomotives, braking and coupling systems, sound,etc. have purposively avoided attempting to build a route. What I am doing now takes enough time that I seldom just sit down and run a train anymore. But I am still quite satisfied.
If we move to a smaller residence when we retire, I will give up the model layout and focus on building structures for folks, TrainSim projects, and volunteer work at sites like the C&TS, EBT, etc.

Bill Hobbs

Wayne,

I have followed the micro-route contex for years, using it to test different aspects of a proposed layout before building it. Usually build a 2 foot x 8 foot piece or section and used it after making changes while the rest of the layout was under construction. Lately I have been looking at some of the work of Ian Rice and thinking about incorporating it into a Trainz route to use as my model railroad. Something like this:






It can't beat MSTS as far as I am concerned for real railroading and operation but I like his work and Trainz is good for model railroading.

Paul

I have one of Ian Rice's layout books and really appreciate his approach to the hobby. Building a 'hands-on' layout isn't in the cards for me ( so long as my will power holds out! ). But so much of the 'keep it simple, keep it small - but do it well' philosophy applies to the virtual hobby as well.

Ian Rice certainly has made it across the pond and seems to be designing some pretty keen North American layouts now- I hankered after a couple of his London East End layout designs for years - about 15 to 20 years ago! (in semi diorama form), and his books were compulsive reading at a time (pre children) when I was still planning on having a layout in the loft. My design, on tracing paper, is in front of me as I type - would make a neat mini layout.....

Rod