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Interesting StLNA Find...


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#1 laming

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Posted 28 December 2005 - 01:13 PM

What an interesting site that is devloping!

http://www.northarka.../new_page_1.htm

#2 august1929

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Posted 28 December 2005 - 02:34 PM

Andre, looks interesting - saved to my favourites - thanks for the heads up biggrin.gif

Rodster

#3 chripsch

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Posted 28 December 2005 - 02:36 PM

Hello Big Poobah!

A real great find! thumbsup.gif Seems to be the book I usually buy after running a great route on MSTS! wink.gif What a pity there in`t one about the StL&NA so far.
Yes, I confess as I studied history I am still addicted to this old fashioned stuff like books made of paper laugh.gif
In december I think 80 percents of my runs on MSTS were somewhere between Seligman and Urbanette somewhen between 1901 and 1988.

Did you ever think about a third version of StL&NA/A&O sub which plays in the 30ies or 40ies?!
The pics of the railcar and the steamers are looking really promising!

Christian

#4 laming

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Posted 28 December 2005 - 03:48 PM

Rodster:

You're welcome!

Christian:

> I am still addicted to this old fashioned stuff like books made of paper

They are still an invaluable resource to me. I continue to purchase them.

> Did you ever think about a third version of StL&NA/A&O sub which plays
> in the 30ies or 40ies?!

Many times. In particular, the year 1944. That was the year the most tonnage EVER moved over the StLNA/M&NA/M&A system. One million tons worth of freight moved through the Ozark hills on the rails of the M&A in that one year.

Unfortunately, my concerns were/are many, some practical, some economical.

Practical: Concerns about how much additional route would need to be built to represent the line's operations reasonably accurately. At the M&A's fullest operation, the district that contained Seligman/Urbanette was some 135 miles long and ran from Joplin, MO, to Harrison, AR. That's a ton of railroad and supporting custom objects to build by yourself in MSTS, to say nothing of the equipment needed.

Economical: How to price/market such a product for it to EVER be a viable effort.

However, I still can't divorce myself from my appreciation for the ol' M&A in view of MSTS. The temptation still rears its head on ocassion.

> The pics of the railcar and the steamers are looking really promising!

You ought to see the "modern" (such as they were) steamers they used in the later years. Handsome indeed. Burly looking consolidateds (40 Class), handsome mikados (50 Class)... good stuff. It would have been glorious to see such pounding up Capps Hill just west of Harrison. Knowing that I could recreate it in MSTS only adds to the temptation. rolleyes.gif (sigh)

However, I have many current things to do in MSTS... so when the Holidays are behind us it's back to work!

#5 TomW

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Posted 28 December 2005 - 07:31 PM

The M&NA #18 on the NAL Site is certainly an interesting loco!
Capped stack, spoked pilot wheels, slide-valves, but a Vanderbilt tender! blink.gif

#6 gerr

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Posted 28 December 2005 - 07:33 PM

Great site, Andre! biggrin.gif

#7 laming

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Posted 28 December 2005 - 08:46 PM

Tom:

Yes, the StLNA/M&NA/M&A had very interesting motive power. Nothing truly exotic, mind you, just basic, fascinating steam power with little surprises here and there. (Like the Vandy tenders behind some of them.)

Plus, who would have thought you'd see New York Central steam in the Ozarks?? Only on the North Arkansas! During the M&NA years (1926-1934), Pres & Gen Mgr W. Stephenson purchased 10 former NYC/Big Four engines. These were handsome, fat boilered brutes that were too heavy for their bridges! That's right, the line had to go out and spend big $$ to beef up their bridges in order to use the "new" second hand power! How's that for good managment?? blink.gif

Below you'll see a pic of one of the Class 40 Consols preparing to leave the Harrison (AR) yard...

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#8 wmghobbs

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Posted 28 December 2005 - 08:48 PM

Andre,
I wonder who all is involved with this group. The Younger's steam loco is now located in a city park just south of Harrison. One of the addresses listed was Harrison; the other was in Missouri. Tm Kubat, from around Springfield, used to be very actively interested in the line. It was his map of Harrison I sent you. I'll see what I can find out from a couple of local M&NA fans.

Bill Hobbs

#9 laming

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Posted 28 December 2005 - 09:02 PM

For giggles, here's an overview of the Harrison yard area. Note the elevation differences that exist in the very compact yard area.

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#10 laming

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Posted 28 December 2005 - 09:07 PM

Slightly off topic: Does anyone know why in the name of sense this fool HP Scanjet 3970 is a hit or miss affair with black and white???

Sometimes it will scan with horrendous dot/maze that I cannot seem to eliminate and results in the poor quality pic seen in the Harrison yard shot.

#11 laming

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Posted 28 December 2005 - 09:11 PM

Bill:

Given my long time interest in the StLNA/M&NA/M&A... I would be most appreciative of any data/resources you may unearth. Especially tempting would be more maps of various towns in the First District.

Hey, I may have a diesel route on the back burner as the "next one"... but I can always dream about the M&A, can't I?

#12 august1929

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Posted 28 December 2005 - 11:49 PM

QUOTE
Slightly off topic: Does anyone know why in the name of sense this fool HP Scanjet 3970 is a hit or miss affair with black and white???

Sometimes it will scan with horrendous dot/maze that I cannot seem to eliminate and results in the poor quality pic seen in the Harrison yard shot.


Andre, presumably the shot that is giving the screen problem is out of a publication of some sort (i.e., not an original photograph).

You are probably picking up the original dot printing of the image, and when it is being scanned by your scanner, the dots per inch on your scanned image will not match, hence the slight moire effect and general low quality.

Do you have a "descreen" button or command on the scanner interface when you fire up the scanner? On mine, an HP Diamond 1200Plus (a real cheapy laugh.gif ) it gives me the option under the descreen "button" of;

None
Newspaper
Magazine
Artprint
Custom

These roughly represent the different qualities of printing DPI.

Alternatively (or in sync), you could jack up your scanned DPI - the Diamond goes up to 19200, which would probably take a week to scan blink.gif

You might already be aware of this, but it might be the solution.

Rodster

#13 chripsch

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Posted 29 December 2005 - 01:10 AM

Good morning Andre!

With the 3rd version I just intended a slightly rebuilt A&O or StL&NA as I know your three jobs and your frretime very well rolleyes.gif
It has been just a spontaneous idea which came down like a lightening from the sky...
... a lightening which caused some unwanted trouble.
As a non specialist of the StL&NA-history I didn`t know that it had been that long.
Hundredthirtyfive miles. Would be three times the A&O.... unsure.gif
...but the more I think about, the more I like the idea I spoke out more or less without big contemplation. wub.gif

QUOTE
Bill:

Given my long time interest in the StLNA/M&NA/M&A... I would be most appreciative of any data/resources you may unearth. Especially tempting would be more maps of various towns in the First District.

Hey, I may have a diesel route on the back burner as the "next one"... but I can always dream about the M&A, can't I?


Yeah and as I see also you`re beginning to dream a bit about the M&A wink.gif
To answer your question, yeah you can always dream of it smile.gif
What would be human beings without dreams ???!
I think without dreams none of your routes would have come true smile.gif
And as you`re dreaming why not dream in divisions or steps ;-) 1st, 2nd 3rd?! Just an idea... It would make it more realistic for you to realize it this way if you´re feeling that it will be one of the next things you want to do.
Anyhow, just the idea of a revised 3d A&O version sounds great. With the Ozark-Northern-rivers, more curves and even more grades and steam....
A wonderful idea...
I better finish thinking about - otherwise I beginn really dreaming and yeah I am sitting in my office now wink.gif
Just seeing your new pics you posted makes me this laugh.gif
Let us dream of it! Dreams are the best institution our lord
provided to us...

With best wishes from icy Germany,

Christian

#14 zhilton

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Posted 29 December 2005 - 03:54 AM

Mr. Ming was reported saying:
QUOTE
At the M&A's fullest operation, the district that contained Seligman/Urbanette was some 135 miles long and ran from Joplin, MO, to Harrison, AR.

So there was a diamond at one ponit there in Seligman? Or did they use some kind of trackage rights from Seligman northward to somewhere near Exeter? I've railfanned that part of the A&M once or twice...so I think I have a "clue" as to what is there. And I'm looking at a detailed road map of SW Missouri. A couple of the towns listed I can't find on my map for a reference. Towns like: Monark Springs and Wayne. dry.gif I did manage to find Ridgley after I got down to the two mile detailed map. After the railroad was givin up...did the State of Missouri pave part of the ROW to become Hwy 76/86? That highway goes to several of the small towns listed on the First District. Maybe I should pick up one of those new fangled things called a book.laugh.gif I hear there is one written about the Railroads of Arkansas; wonder if there would be anything about the ROW in SW Missouri?

#15 Redwall

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Posted 29 December 2005 - 06:54 AM

Awsome site!

#16 laming

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Posted 29 December 2005 - 11:56 AM

Rod:

It has "descreen", but doesn't seem to do squat. I'll poke around some more.

Christian:

A dreamer I am. Unfortunately, I have the other side of me that injects a dose of reality into whatever I'm dreaming up. rolleyes.gif

Also, I need to correct something, the First District is "only" 126 miles long. blush.gif

IF I ever extended the StLNA/A&O, it would be to Harrison, some 34.5 miles. In otherwords, a doubling of the StLNA route mileage.

The remaining 60 or so miles of track in the First District was Seligman to Joplin which included trackage rights over the SLSF (9.43 miles) and KCS (19.70 miles). Even if I DID try to extend the StLNA/A&O, I really would not be interested in trying to reach Joplin on account of having to deal with the White Void, as well as the equipment issues it would introduce.

Zach:

No diamond at Seligman. The M&NA/M&A had 9.43 miles of trackage rights over the SLSF from Wayne to Seligman. No diamonds at either end, merely a switch junction.

As to a "clue" to where the M&A was located in Seligman, bear in mind the M&A shared the same terminal area with the SLSF exactly as depicted in my StLNA route.

The M&A's southeasterly mainline out of Seligman is still visible: Near the north end of "town", it's the deep cut the hiway passes over. From that point, the roadbed heads SE out of town. If you'll take the dirt road SE out of town that is near the cut, this time of year (minimal undergrowth foliage) you will see the roadbed quite easily. You can follow it for several miles.

Okie doakie... next question? biggrin.gif

#17 august1929

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Posted 29 December 2005 - 12:23 PM

Andre, try scanning under a higher DPI, say 600 or even 1000. The point is, doing that you stand a reasonable chance of picking up all of every dot used in the original print, and not picking up a pattern where parts of dots are scanned, and other parts missed.

Rodster

#18 chripsch

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Posted 29 December 2005 - 01:11 PM

QUOTE
Also, I need to correct something, the First District is "only" 126 miles long.


Ooops, seems I dropped another brick.... sad.gif 126 miles...
Would be really a bit much for a one man enterprise doing 3 jobs
one time....
Before I drop some more bricks lets look how your intentions about

QUOTE
the StLNA/A&O, it would be to Harrison, some 34.5 miles

are developing or not.

Would be very interesting a doubling of the track biggrin.gif

You must know until yesterday the StL&NA was a shortline of some 30 odd miles for me and now we`re talking about hundreds of these distance units....
Being a bit confused now I´ll look forward what might develop in this thread and I`ll sit down just for listening wink.gif

Christian

#19 laming

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Posted 29 December 2005 - 01:40 PM

Rod:

Will do.

Christian:

No need for confusion, I will enlighten you...

* The StLNA route represents the very early construction of the expansion of the prototype StLNA. That's why it is only 34 miles or so long. Every new railroad starts small. (I chose this time frame as a way to avoid having too much route to build.)

* When the StLNA was fully completed, it stretched 359 miles from Joplin, Missouri to Helena, Arkansas.

* The only portion of that 359 miles I would be tempted to build would be from Seligman, Missouri to Harrison, Arkansas, which equals about 65 miles. Of that, I already have the Seligman to Freeman section included in the StLNA, resulting in needing an additional 35 miles or so of route constructed in order to reach Harrison.

Now, here's the part that you must remember: I am only discussing my thoughts about this route. At this point I do not intend, or am I seriously considering, extending the StLNA and updating to 1944.

A reminder...

A this point, there are two routes on the table being pursued and in this order:

1. The current Ozark Northern.

2. The Rock Island Hot Springs Branch.

Of these, the Rock Island idea will still need to be explored more fully in order to establish if it is attainable in regards to amassing needed textures and data for a late 1960's era.

Keep in mind that once a route is selected, a major hurdle is the supporting cast (items) that needs to be built in order to breathe life into the route. Needed for these items are such things as:

* Appropriate textures for engines.
* Appropriate textures for rollingstock.
* Appropriate textures for vehicles.
* Suitable textures for structures.
* Field data.
* Technical data. (Timetables, track charts, anything one can unearth.)
* Operational data.
* Etc, ad nauseum! blink.gif

Building a prototype-based route is a very, very involved process. Basing it in an older era instead of a recent time frame will increase the challenges.

#20 chripsch

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Posted 29 December 2005 - 02:37 PM

Hi Andre,

thanks for your enlightenment smile.gif Now I know that line which I regarded to come as a SHORTline not fully completed are just the beginnings of an 359 Miles road...

This resolved the confusing part for me. Now some more details are clear to me.
I always considered the StL&NA as a stand-alone route until today innocent.gif
But now I know a bit more wink.gif
For the other thing
QUOTE
this point I do not intend, or am I seriously considering, extending the StLNA and updating to 1944.

I didn`t take the discussion so far for more than just a just theoretic discussion of possibilities. smile.gif

Just the route itself created some confusion...
Your thoughts about the extension I understand very well. It takes dozens of hours recreating a locomotive and even more a route. F.e. I spent ca. 25 hours for getting my 25 tonner to where I wanted it.
And for the routes its even worse. Just for the for the rebuild of the SR&RL which is slowly beginning I had to buy books for 100s of $ and well... they all wanted to be read one day. rolleyes.gif
And for the NG-project in which I am taking part I gave up counting how much houses, bridges, cars etc I built since the summer of 2004 unsure.gif
At 1st I`ll look forward for the Ozark Northern to come.
Will be a great route which supplies enough work for guys like me laugh.gif

Christian

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