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Ozark Lines Progress


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#1 laming

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Posted 04 August 2005 - 06:57 PM

Hi Again Troops!

Thought I would start a thread that I can use as a vehicle to post updates concerning the Ozark Lines project(s) as they come in. Feel free to post replies and input (in fact, input is desired!), but let's try to aim any input to be in harmony with the theme of this thread.

I spent most of this evening creating the St. Paul depot. Yup, it is based on reality and looks acceptably like the original (except for window/door trim color).

There are several more new structures to make, but like the slow moving worm said when asked how he planned to cross the forest: "Inch by inch it's a cinch!"

So... without further adieu, to start the thread off I'll post a little pic I just took while I was in TSM.

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#2 chripsch

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Posted 05 August 2005 - 02:51 AM

Hi Andre!

Nice station! Glad to hear that you`re enjoying building your route! biggrin.gif
We enjoy watching your progress! wink.gif
QUOTE
(in fact, input is desired!)

Well, my desires would be:
- nice mountain creeks (painted on the terrex)
- horses, riders and coaches (for the right 19th centaury-feeling)
- Some waterpowered industries like sawmills with their huge wheels

Enjoy your dedication to the Ozarks,

Best regards,

Christian

#3 S. Weaver

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Posted 05 August 2005 - 11:34 AM

QUOTE(laming @ Aug 4 2005, 08:57 PM)
I spent most of this evening creating the St. Paul depot.

Cats! It has an order board!

Nice work, Coonskin.

#4 jbt1024

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Posted 05 August 2005 - 11:51 AM

Lots of trees, good lookin Terrtex, and the coonskin RE look that we all love tongue.gif

Thanks,
Jonathan

#5 laming

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Posted 05 August 2005 - 01:18 PM

Thanks for the shouts of "sic'em". biggrin.gif

Some assorted replies:

> Well, my desires would be:
> - nice mountain creeks (painted on the terrex)

I intend to experiment with various approaches to water.

> - horses, riders and coaches (for the right 19th centaury-feeling)

Hope to have some horses, horse drawn log wagons and buckboards, that sort of thing. With the arrival of the rails, the stage lines were typically put out of business, so doubt I'll tackle a stagecoach.

> - Some waterpowered industries like sawmills with their huge wheels

In this part of the woods, they were steam powered.

> Cats! It has an order board!

Non-operative, I'm afraid. I always felt order boards were conspicuous by their absence on the StLNA. I didn't want them in place if they didn't operate. However, I think they add so much to the aura, I decided to go ahead and go with them, even if they're only cosmetic.

BTW, that depot is based on a "standard" depot the Frisco used early on. That same basic depot will be used in at least two of the busier locations: St. Paul and Zinc City. Smaller depots will be used at other stations.

> Lots of trees, good lookin Terrtex, and the coonskin RE look that we all love

Well, there will be sections in this route that trees will be thin. When you're in a situation that you're looking down on large vista's, trying to fill such with trees is prohibitive. There are places that you will be up on a mountainside some 800 to 1000 feet above the valley floor, and you'll be able to see over 1.2 miles (the maximum drawing distance for MSTS). Just no way to attempt filling such with trees and still have some object count headroom for good trackside detail. In such situations, the impression of trees will have to suffice.

As for terrtex, none of the pictures to date use terrtex patches I will develop for this route. All pics thus far use a default KUJU terrain terrtex.

As for this Ozark Lines concept, I'm going to do some things never really done before in regards to era, themes, execution, and the way each project will be a seperate railroad, yet connected. IF all my dreams come to pass, there will be at least two routes in the Ozark Lines series, and possibly 3 (or 4). Each will be different from the other in regards to what it will offer in operational themes, scenarios, visuals, etc. There will be a common thread that will hold the entire series together, though, and that is the Ozarks.

Perhaps later tonight I can post some more progress pics. smile.gif

#6 august1929

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Posted 05 August 2005 - 02:44 PM

Andre, not much I can add, except for my encouragement and enthusiasm for the atmosphere you create in your world.

The concept sounds very good (even if ultimately also very ambitious) - for sure both your railroads remain unique within the the community, each subtly different, but with the same warm and homely feeling. What I saw of BME looked to be developing that atmosphere with a grandeur brought about by bigger mountains. Sufficiently different from the first 2 to have instant appeal.

Go fer it

Rodster

#7 laming

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Posted 05 August 2005 - 03:55 PM

Rodster:

When in doubt as to what to say to a route builder... simply brag on them. Makes us work our fool heads off. rolleyes.gif

BTW, Rod, this first Ozark Lines route will not be the BM&E.

Below you will find a couple pics... the first is taken at Zinc City. I've just been sort of tinkering with Zinc City... I expect there to be changes before this route is finished. However, I sort of like the way it the entire railroad and town scenes are situated on a hillside.

Oh... time for the pic...

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#8 laming

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Posted 05 August 2005 - 03:59 PM

And for my next act, here we see an in-progress shot of St. Paul.

Just going by what you can see, you can understand how that it rightfully was referred to as the "Hardwood Capital of the World" during it's hey day. BTW, I'm modeing it's hey day!! What is not pictured is the long spur that leads to the largest lumber mill in the region: Phipps Lumber. (Name and scope of the mill is based on protoype info.)

The pic...

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#9 jbt1024

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Posted 05 August 2005 - 06:14 PM

Thanks Andre, I wish MSTS (TMTS) will be able to fix this problem of the trees, its a real bug to see alot of trees then start climbin a grade and look down into a valley (for example) and see no trees huh.gif

Its lookin great rolleyes.gif

Thanks,
Jonathan

#10 TomW

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Posted 05 August 2005 - 06:23 PM

Andre:
Some neat lookin' shots there.
My, that coal dock and watertower does look a tad familiar. biggrin.gif
(Not that there's anything wrong with that . . .)

I like the mill, but I think the mills up in Maine would bury it in output.
I'll look-up some photos of the big mills up on the Sandy River for ya.
They piled the logs higher than the boxcars and actually built "rollovers" to take the logs OVER the trains.

There's a reason Maine is known for "potatahs, lumbah, and lobstahs" wink.gif

#11 laming

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Posted 05 August 2005 - 07:33 PM

JT's post:

> I wish MSTS (TMTS) will be able to fix this problem of the trees,

Well, don't count too much on that. Given the ton of new calculations TMTS will have to calculate just to move the train over the line (ultra realistic physics don't come free), I suspect there will be limitations in the eye candy realm as well.

> its a real bug to see alot of trees then start climbin a grade and look down into a valley (for example)
> and see no trees

For me, in MSTS I like seeing the vista's as opposed to running among rows of trees and only seeing trees. I like SOME trees in MSTS, but I don't want to exactly replicate nature as it is in the Ozarks. Doing so would mean you can't see the forest for the trees!

In the real world, when I'm out exploring the Ozarks for old roadbeds and other tidbits, I prefer to wait until the dead of winter (after all the foliage is off). That way I can see the vista's better, as well as any remains/evidences of roadbeds/whatever.

Tom's post:

> Some neat lookin' shots there.

Thank 'yuh, thank 'yuh... thank 'yuh vury much.

> My, that coal dock and watertower does look a tad familiar.
> (Not that there's anything wrong with that . . .)

Yup. Indeed. Building an object library is not a situation that each route replaces the previous objects with all new ones. (Unless you radically shift era's as I did with the StLNA/A&O projects. That was THE reason it took me so much longer to get the A&O finished than I expected.)

Instead, you continue to add to it, reusing the previous objects as needed. Generally, I'm reusing the previous objects as back ground items, and building new items for up front.

However, the above may not be the case with railroad structures, which pretty much look the same from one regional railroad to the next. That is, a 60,000 gal cylindrical water tank is a 60,000 gal cylindrical water tank. Ditto a coaling platform, etc. About the only thing that radically changes is paint. Plus, "back then", it seems that oxide red was almost a defacto standard for MOW and physical plant structures, or at least it appears so in the collection of Ozark railroad photos I have.

> I like the mill, but I think the mills up in Maine would bury it in output.

FWIW: The distant mill scene in the above pic has already changed. I was studying some St. Paul pics and noted the mill scene was different than I depicted.

I have no facts/figures on board-feet of output for the many mills in the region. One history book does read thusly:

"In 1887 the McDanial Brothers mill shipped two-million dollars worth of white oak crossties over the line."

Bear in mind the McDanial Brothers mill in question was not the largest mill. Plus, it was only one among dozens of mills in the region. During the hey day (that I'm modeling), the prototype St. Paul Branch had several passenger trains per day, as well as freights running up and down the line all day/night.

Also, remember that we're talking about exhausting the timber along 35 miles (later extended to be 43 miles)of standard gauge railroad, as well as another 20 miles on another standard gauge railroad (that connected with the St. Paul Branch). Plus, this includes all the timber that can be harvested and teamed several miles trackside for hauling to, or to the mill for sawing. (i.e. all the hollows and reachable mountainsides.)

Such output was THE reason it was all over in 2-3 decades: They exhausted the profitable/reachable timber, and the towns were not economically diversified enough to survive the mills "cutting out".

Of course, during those days, there WAS other freight, just not as much as the timber products. In fact, it is recorded in one of my books that:

"Although the lumber mills were the major source of business for the F&LR (see Note 1 below) , they were by no means the only one. Irish Mulrenin (see Note 2 below) said he picked up 125 cars of apples at Elkins during one season (see Note 3 below), and at one time he spotted ten cars of local merchandise on the team track there."

Note 1: "Fayettevill & Little Rock". This was the original railroad that started construction of the St. Paul Branch. It was quickly purchased by the Frisco.

Note 2: At the time of the above history's compiliation, John "Irish" Mulrenin was a surviving eye witness to, and ex-railroad laborer on, the F&LR.

Note 3: About 4-6 weeks.


> I'll look-up some photos of the big mills up on the Sandy River for ya.
> They piled the logs higher than the boxcars and actually built "rollovers" to take the logs OVER the trains.

Sounds interesting! If you will, simply start a new thread with your pics and we'll all oogle them! biggrin.gif

#12 chripsch

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Posted 06 August 2005 - 01:11 AM

NOTE: Looks like I hit the EDIT button instead of the REPLY button. Silly me. Therefore, we lost Christians original post. My apologies!

Christian said:

> Great PICs! Its already looking like a real town! biggrin.gif

Long ways to go, still. Soon I will need to apply myself in sincerity to building the new structures that will be added to this route, as well as the texture/terrtex work.

> Seems if there are your locos with a ordinary frontcoupler (link and pin or semi-automatic-
> when was the change of the coupling-system???)

I'm not sure I understand what you are asking, but I think you are asking about link and pin versus knuckle (automatic) couplers?

All equipment in the Ozark Lines concept routes will use link and pin couplers. This is only a visual exercise, they operate like knuckle/automatic couplers within MSTS.

In the USA, link and pin was allowed up until 1899, which was the "drop dead" date for them. (Federal law forbid their use in interchange service after 1899.)

> we get many switching-jobs to do wink.gif

Yes indeed.

> Have there also been some tank-engines to do this stuff?

In 30 years of historical research, I have not unearthed any evidence of a tank engine having operated in this portion of northwest Arkansas. Seeing as I want to remain historically plausible (even for the freelanced portions), I will refrain from using tank engines.

All the equipment will be based on prototpye examples or practice for the region during the era depicted.

> Is Gaetan already working on the rolling-stock?

Gaetan is the Diesel Guy.

Jon Davis will be supplying the models for these routes, so you KNOW they'll be superb.

> Will be there also some mixed trains to run?

Well, perhaps. During the era, traffic levels were typically sufficient so that scheduled passenger trains were used, and the freight needind moved was left to the local freights. Keep in mind that "back then" you could buy a ticket and ride the caboose on about any scheduled freight train. In fact, this "law" was kept in place in Oklahoma until about the end of steam. (I have a friend that purchased such a ticket on the Midland Valley and rode the caboose of a freight from Ft. Smith, Arkansas to Keota, Oklahoma toward the end of steam.)

> Listens very nice, that you try to make creeks on the terrex coming to live!

I hope to. We shall see!

> And receycling the old stuff from oher roads isn`t a sin -

It's not a sin, it's a necessity! blink.gif

> Go on this way!

Thanks for the encouragement and interest. I shall indeed proceed!

#13 sevenbrewer

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Posted 06 August 2005 - 12:57 PM

I was wondering about distant trees on yonder mountains myself. I have no idea if this would work, but could you give a distant mountain a fuzzy or hairy texture to imitate the look of trees on a very distant hill? I have no idea of how the modelling works on msts, but I was thinking if it was just one object, instead of trees added to a mountain object, it would add some looks with little or no object count hit on performance.

If you use it, call it 'hair brained scheme #1206'.

#14 laming

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Posted 06 August 2005 - 02:38 PM

> I was wondering about distant trees on yonder mountains myself.

Them ain't the problem... it's the intermediate ones. blink.gif

> I have no idea if this would work, but could you give a distant mountain a fuzzy or hairy texture to imitate
> the look of trees on a very distant hill?

Yup, your idea WILL work, and has been done in the StLNA and A&O. That's why the distant hillsides look like they have trees on them. In fact, the base terrain.ace texture used for the the StLNA and A&O came from a mountainside in the Ozarks. I then harmonized the textures edges, along with other doctoring, to minimize the tessalation tendency when a texture is tiled, and presto: A mountain terrtex.

Bottom line: Actual tree objects will be at a premium in the vista scenes, and the object count will be saved for the many, many, many, bridges and other up-front eye candy.

Speaking of eye candy: Any of you like bridges?

If so, then this route ought to be right up your alley.

In the 10 miles from Turner's Bend to the summit at Fly Gap, there are 18 bridges. The highest of which is 90' high and 540' long. The others vary in height from 30' to 75' and vary in length but will average about 300' long.

Once up on the summit, the remaining 10 miles or so to St. Paul already has 13 bridges in place, with about another 12 to go. The highest and longest on that segment of line is 90' high and 690' long. Oh, and almost all the bridges in the route are on curves.

Up that high on a spindly trestle makes for some pretty spectacular views of the terrain and your train!

For those of you with the StLNA or A&O, portions of this route will make that terrain look like the prairie! (Only kidding. Actually, I always liked the little tumbled hills that are in the in the StLNA/A&O.)

All for now... I've been placing bridges most the afternoon and think I need a break.

Ice tea time!

#15 chripsch

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Posted 06 August 2005 - 03:14 PM

Hi Andre!

Enjoy your icetea biggrin.gif After a hard work you should rest a bit wink.gif

And if I am liking bridges: I just love them wub.gif wub.gif wub.gif
...and did a time building them as my job:
In the military I served as an engineer in a bridge-builders-unit...
-So, I am quite familiar with them biggrin.gif
What about tunnles wink.gif

With interest I read your thread about your rolling-stock tests. Are there
some pics already avilable of the stuff on wheels wink.gif

Thank you very much for clearing the question of knuckles and link`n pin!
As a (now) studied historian I was always asking myself when the change
took place in the US. I knew it about Russia, I knew it that in old Europe we┬┤re
still riding with chain and buffer like around 1830 but this question remained
until today...

Ok, while you`re enjoing your icetea its time to go to bed in Germany, wink.gif

Best regards,

Christian

#16 laming

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Posted 06 August 2005 - 09:49 PM

Christian said:

"What about tunnles"

No tunnels on this route. None of the regional shortlines and branches had tunnels. The only tunnel in the region was on the Frisco's mainline to Texas at Winslow, Arkansas. It still sees Arkansas & Missouri trains daily.

"With interest I read your thread about your rolling-stock tests. Are there
some pics already avilable of the stuff on wheels.."

Sure, here's a few pics of some of the equipment on hand and being finalized:

http://www.vscalecre....com/CMtext.htm

(Be sure to refresh your browser.)

#17 august1929

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Posted 07 August 2005 - 05:27 AM

Andre, it is only a couple of days since I visited this thread and it seems like you are well and truly into your stride.

St Pauls looks exciting - lots of good visuals and angles to shoot them from (dang, this is supposed to be a railroad, not a film set rolleyes.gif ) - well, you know what I mean - make it look good for a camera, and it is going to look even better if you are driving through in a cab.

Glad you are enjoying being back in the RE, and it is great to see your enthusiasm working its way through to the forum.

Looking forward to the next screenshots.

QUOTE
When in doubt as to what to say to a route builder... simply brag on them. Makes us work our fool heads off.


Now, is that enough for a couple of days, or do I have to put more effort in? laugh.gif

Rodster

#18 zhilton

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Posted 07 August 2005 - 05:30 PM

QUOTE
In the 10 miles from Turner's Bend to the summit at Fly Gap, there are 18 bridges. The highest of which is 90' high and 540' long. The others vary in height from 30' to 75' and vary in length but will average about 300' long.


Hey Andre...there is a rumor/story that has been told that a railroad that ran in those parts of the woods used an old Ft. Smith Streetcar (trolley) for there "passenger & mail" train operation. It would have been after the 1933 shut down of the Ft. Smith system. The story is the railroad purchased the car complete and installed a generator on the back to power it. I think this story is WAY off the wall. laugh.gif I do know this car in question did end up at Turner's Bend...and was there until about 10-12 years ago. It has since moved back to Ft. Smith for future restoration.

#19 laming

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Posted 08 August 2005 - 03:54 AM

Hey back at 'cha Zach!

In regards to that rumored car at Turner's Bend, I will tell you more about it later. I was the one to first unearth that tidbit some 25 years ago.

I don't have time to go into it right now... off to run an engine for Pioneer Rail. Wanna' come up to Marble City and railroad a bit? biggrin.gif

#20 zhilton

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Posted 08 August 2005 - 03:58 PM

Coonskin was reported saying:
QUOTE
Wanna' come up to Marble City and railroad a bit?


It isn't that I don't want to...but I think my boss would like for me to show up to work at 6:00 every weekday morning. blush.gif I'd rather be railfanning...but holding the wheel pays the bills. dry.gif laugh.gif