Jump to content


Photo

Western Pacific Zephyr set


This topic has been archived. This means that you cannot reply to this topic.
22 replies to this topic

#1 rrcnichols

rrcnichols

    Railfan

  • Valued Customer
  • 3 posts

Posted 16 July 2004 - 02:44 PM

Hi guys

I am about to order the California Zephyr sets but I notice the Western Pacific A unit has the chicken wire mesh between the portholes. This is incorrect for any WP F unit. Is this a realatively easy fix I can do myself or will I be stuck with this detail error.

Many thanks
Nigel

#2 TomG

TomG

    Dispatcher

  • Beta Tester
  • 502 posts

Posted 16 July 2004 - 02:57 PM

Hi Nigel,
Sorry dude, but your incorrect. When WP went shopping for Passenger units, the first order was for F-3's. 3 sets In ABB form. They were classified in railfan terms phase II's which had only 2 porthols on the A unit, and DID have the screens between the portholes, hi fan shrouds and "chicken wire" screens on the intakes. The reason you dont see them in most pictures is that WP removed them several years after delivery. If you like i can send you pics as delivered. smile.gif
Tom

#3 Bananarama

Bananarama

    The Big Kahuna

  • 3DTrains Admin
  • 8,104 posts

Posted 16 July 2004 - 03:00 PM

The pics I used as reference were pretty grainy, so I assumed the F3's to have wire between the portholes as other roads had done. However, and aside from waiting for me to do an update, the chickenwire for the F's can be changed simply by adding an alpha to the "Wire.ace" files. I'll add the correct changes to the v4 sets I'm working on (currently in beta in the F-Unit forum).

Thanks for the info on the WP F3's. I'll re-check the reference photos. smile.gif

Cheers!
Marc

#4 Bananarama

Bananarama

    The Big Kahuna

  • 3DTrains Admin
  • 8,104 posts

Posted 16 July 2004 - 03:02 PM

QUOTE(TomG @ Jul 16 2004, 01:57 PM)
and DID have the screens between the portholes, hi fan shrouds and "chicken wire" screens on the intakes.

Thanks for the info, Tom. smile.gif

Cheers!
Marc

#5 TomG

TomG

    Dispatcher

  • Beta Tester
  • 502 posts

Posted 16 July 2004 - 03:34 PM

Always a pleasure Marc.
You know, one way around the Grills is to make the FP7's. lol have a great pic of 804 but not smart enough to know how to post it. blush.gif

#6 milepost56

milepost56

    Commissioner

  • 3DTrains Moderator
  • 2,122 posts

Posted 16 July 2004 - 03:46 PM

Yes, Tom is correct not only in his verification of WP having F3's but his ID of the F3's as well. The F3 did make a transition to F7 appearance towards the end of production and was coined F5 even though EMD did not catolog the F5 and went from the F3 to F7 designation.

Marc, your examples are correct and need not be altered.

#7 TomG

TomG

    Dispatcher

  • Beta Tester
  • 502 posts

Posted 16 July 2004 - 05:08 PM

Hi Kevin,
Sorry but you might have your info confused. ill try not to be long winded like i always do.

WP bought the 3 ABB sets of F3s new, and they went their entire life on WP with few changes. Other than the removal of the screens between the portholes, the only changes were the addition of nose and cab grab irons and hand holds, and the addition of a M5 5 chime horn on 803A. The other 2 A Units were 801A and 802A, they were transfered to freight service in 68 and recieved nose MU connections and hoses and had their fuel tank skirts removed. The only real odd ball came from the NYO&W. F3A 801D was purchased as backup power but spent its life in freight service, it didnt have stainless steel side panels, or a signal light in the nose door and didnt even have a steam generator. it had the low fan shrouds. but still chicken wire screens.
The next order were the 2 sets of FP7s. they were in ABA form. An FP7A F7B FP7A sets. 804A, 804B, 804D and 805A, 805B, 805D. These had the standard stainless steel sides as the WP purchased F3s. From the begining these FP7s and F7B,s were mixed with the F3s. So there would be the F7Bs along with F3B running happily together. One freight F7, 920B was transfered into passenger service and had its truckes swapped out with higher gearing to match the other units, undercarrage painted silver to match, and even kept its fuel tank skirts longer then most freight units did, this unit is the why every once in awhile you would see a steam era headlight on the roof of a B unit on the Zephyr consist when it was standard on the freight F7Bs, this unit also didnt have stainless steel side panels as the freight Fs were only painted with aluminum paint.
When the zephyer was discontinued, the passenger Units worked together in freight service because of their differnt geared trucks, and ran out their lives another your aor 2 till traded in on GP40s. The F3s left almost unchanged durring their tenior.
sorry about the length.
Tom

#8 cell0518

cell0518

    *Canon 300D Owner*

  • Valued Customer
  • PipPipPip
  • 269 posts

Posted 16 July 2004 - 09:19 PM

Cool info. I'm looking forward to those F's Marc. Hope it isn't too long wink.gif.

#9 milepost56

milepost56

    Commissioner

  • 3DTrains Moderator
  • 2,122 posts

Posted 17 July 2004 - 11:58 AM

Thanks TomG, obviously you are the guru for WP a railroad I know mostly from reading in Trains and from information I've gathered over the years.

My reply was for F3's in general, not specific to WP's which thanks to you I now know a little more about. In my opinion the WP passenger paint scheme was one of the best.

PS: Don't feel bad about a long boring reply as I posted a few a couple of weeks back that were less entertaining then watching paint dry. biggrin.gif

#10 zhivago47

zhivago47

    Operations Manager

  • Invalid Email
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,819 posts

Posted 17 July 2004 - 08:38 PM

I resemble that remark Kevin! wink.gif

#11 milepost56

milepost56

    Commissioner

  • 3DTrains Moderator
  • 2,122 posts

Posted 18 July 2004 - 02:11 PM

QUOTE(zhivago47 @ Jul 17 2004, 08:38 PM)
I resemble that remark Kevin! wink.gif

Hi ya Tim, glad you could join us even if it was short and sweet biggrin.gif

#12 rrcnichols

rrcnichols

    Railfan

  • Valued Customer
  • 3 posts

Posted 18 July 2004 - 02:56 PM

Thanks Tom

However I will stand by my claim of no chicken wire grills between the portholes. I agree they had high shoud fans, slotted dynamic brake vents and two portholes. But they only had filters over the 4 square intake vents between the portholes.
You say the grills were removed a several years after delivery yet I can offer a colour picture of 803 ABB when she was 3 months old in Oct 5 1947 on the point of the "Flyer" prior to the Cal Zep cars arriving showing the two portholes with chrome plated rings and NO mesh between the portholes.
I will certainly stand corrected and opolagize should someone be able to show a photo otherwise. I am only taking WP units, nothing of other roads.

Now having said all that. I have purchase the set from 3DTrains (yet to work out how to download them)because I believe them to well worth it.
Yet they have the large "Western Pacific" lettering which was applied much later in their time on the road.
So if I am incorrect about the mesh "between" the portholes them surely the loco should have the small "Western Pacific" lettering.

Am I able to post the pic here.???

#13 Bananarama

Bananarama

    The Big Kahuna

  • 3DTrains Admin
  • 8,104 posts

Posted 18 July 2004 - 05:19 PM

QUOTE(rrcnichols @ Jul 18 2004, 01:56 PM)
Am I able to post the pic here.???

I believe so. smile.gif

Cheers!
Marc

#14 rrcnichols

rrcnichols

    Railfan

  • Valued Customer
  • 3 posts

Posted 18 July 2004 - 06:02 PM

Here is the photo I was talking about.

Lets be sure we are singing the same tune here. When I say chicken mesh grills between the protholes I am refering the mesh grills the stretched from prothole to porthole over the panels and intake vents.
To add to my persistance re the chicken grills not being between the portholes on WP F units. Certainly if the units were delievered with the grills they were well gone from the sides of the loco by the time the CZ arrived in 1949. It is therefore correct for me to say that the 3DTrains set should "not" have the grills between the portholes. All is ok as I am downloading the sets now and I can apparently remove the grills to suit what I believe to be correct for the CZ set.

One of the very reason I feel the WP units look so good is the lack of the grills between the portholes.
I would very much appreciated a photo of the units with them on as them being there in the first place is very new to me.

here is a link to the picture that has me so persistant :>)

http://www.wave.co.n...Project/803.htm

Many thanks
Nigel

#15 Bananarama

Bananarama

    The Big Kahuna

  • 3DTrains Admin
  • 8,104 posts

Posted 19 July 2004 - 12:41 AM

Looking at this picture, and those that I have, it would appear that my set should not have the wire relative to the lettering used on the sides, but would be correct had I used the earlier, and smaller font. I'll make note of that for the v4 set when I get there. FWIW, the locos in the set were based partly on the following pic, where I failed to note the lack of chicken wire between portholes:

IPB Image



As for the current state of the chicken wire, you can't remove the porthole wire without affecting the wire in the grille area. However, I'll make some changes for the v4 model to allow more flexibility in the model. smile.gif

Cheers!
Marc

#16 cell0518

cell0518

    *Canon 300D Owner*

  • Valued Customer
  • PipPipPip
  • 269 posts

Posted 19 July 2004 - 07:38 AM

QUOTE(Hack @ Jul 18 2004, 08:19 PM)
QUOTE(rrcnichols @ Jul 18 2004, 01:56 PM)
Am I able to post the pic here.???

I believe so. smile.gif

Cheers!
Marc

I am not able to Marc. Check your permissions under Manage Forums or whatever it's called. smile.gif

Chris

laugh.gif > 250 Posts. I'm movin' on up tongue.gif laugh.gif

#17 TomG

TomG

    Dispatcher

  • Beta Tester
  • 502 posts

Posted 19 July 2004 - 10:42 AM

ok, to keep my reply from running on 12 pages, i cut a few corners. i have gone back through pics and dont find any pics of the F3 still containing the side grill post 49. but they are a few in 47 and 48. since thes pics are in my own collectiona and books, i dont know how to post them without sending them to marc, so i will. but yes you are correct, by the time large lettering arrived they were definalty gone.
books containing pics with the grill still on.
Portrait of a silver lady ,by bruce Mcgregor and Ted benson
Western Pacific pictorial, by John Ryczkowski
And several WP railroad company mags called "milepost" from the 40's and 50's

Marc ill send you the email if you wouldnt mind posting the pic. biggrin.gif
Tom

#18 Bananarama

Bananarama

    The Big Kahuna

  • 3DTrains Admin
  • 8,104 posts

Posted 19 July 2004 - 03:22 PM

QUOTE(cell0518 @ Jul 19 2004, 06:38 AM)
I am not able to Marc. Check your permissions under Manage Forums or whatever it's called. smile.gif

It might be that this forum isn't set up for it (some are, some aren't). Since you're in the "F-Units" group, I know you have permission to post pics in certain areas - I don't recall which, however.

Cheers!
Marc

#19 milepost56

milepost56

    Commissioner

  • 3DTrains Moderator
  • 2,122 posts

Posted 19 July 2004 - 03:57 PM

It is posssible that the WP units were delivered without the lower chicken wire grills, but more than likely the sides were altered by the railroad sometime after delivery.

The F3 was in production from July of 1945 til February of 1949. Around April or May of 1947 there was a design change as the three portholes were reduced to 2 portholes. In addition there were 4 air intakes added to the sides in between the 2 portholes which were covered by chicken wire until fall of 1948. At this time the F3 started to appear like the soon to be released F7 model with louvered air intakes and steel or stainless steel grill work protecting the upper carbody filters area.

My guess is the F3's were delivered with the chicken wire and later modified for appearance. Unless someone has builders photos for the WP units as they were released from EMD or the specs from the WP when the units were ordered your guess is as good as mine.

#20 Bananarama

Bananarama

    The Big Kahuna

  • 3DTrains Admin
  • 8,104 posts

Posted 19 July 2004 - 04:05 PM

Tom sent me a series of pictures showing the WP units (as delivered) with chickenwire between the portholes. However, these same units used the smaller WP font, and images of the same units relettered with larger font no longer have the chickenwire installed. All this is being noted for the next set of updates. smile.gif

Cheers!
Marc