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#21 SCL

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Posted 01 July 2004 - 02:02 PM

You're dead-on there Mike - and not forgetting of course the fabulous Eureka and Palisade #4 and #5. What a pity they're narrowgauge though. All these models are obviously a total labour of love!

I guess the low-key approach to railroads of this period has many advantages, as well as making them unique to the mass of routes now available for MSTS. I'm sure I've seen 3D models of horses and wagons as well that are available.

Well, food for thought anyway! I'm sure whatever Andre puts together will gain all of our appreciation. Be sort of nice if we could all chip in as well in some way to lessen the workload. Ho hum. wink.gif

Cheers
Ken

#22 laming

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Posted 01 July 2004 - 02:38 PM

Hi Guys!

Been busy... I'll try to hit the high spots:

Additonal rolling stock:

For the most part, in 1901-1902 the coal was shipped on the NA using truss rod wooden gondolas. Would love to have a model of one! A cattle car exists among the Fowlis collection, but it has alpha channel struggles.


Connections:

Don't know what all the corporate names were at the time, but until the North Arkansas was well into their expansion, they only connected with the Frisco at Seligman. I included some Iron Mountain & Southern (eventually to become the Missouri Pacific) for much needed relief. To the north, once reaching Joplin, they would have picked up the MKT. I guess any primary connections with the Frisco could be seen on NA rails?


Expanding to include the full district from Joplin-Harrison:

A dreaded white void to contend with. This would be encountered when headed south from Joplin. You cross it right at Seligman. This is covered in the documentation included with the NA. The NA was started before the technology existed to shift a route and the terrain "x" amount of miles. This fact makes it doubtful that I'd ever reach Joplin with it.

It would have REALLY been cool to have been able to expand it to be Joplin-Harrision, consign some protoypically correct power/equipment to be built... and model the year of their heaviest freight movements: 1943-1944. Over a million tons per year were moved during the WW2 years. Think: Big boilered 2-8-0's and handsome 2-8-2's for mainline power. (Slobber, drool...) This idea was actually explored. See the sim load splash screen attached below that includes a view of one their handsome 2-8-0's!!

Oh what fun I could have if I had more time and unlimited funds! laugh.gif


Modern Diesels on the NA:

Aggh! Nope, no Dash-11-4's. Had I "freelanced" it into the diesel era, it would have been 1949 or so, and power would have been from the supplier that the NA approached for dieselization: Alco's RS-1. I think much of the "charm" of the NA could have been retained in such an era.


All for now.

Andre

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#23 Mike

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Posted 01 July 2004 - 02:39 PM

QUOTE(SCL @ Jul 1 2004, 04:02 PM)
I'm sure I've seen 3D models of horses and wagons as well that are available.

Like minds. Yes there are horses and carts and they're part of my Key West route.

Store is a repaint in my surname, original by Dickey Tarkington. Horse and cart by Terry Thornton.

I show the Inyo here, but the route is being designed for the Baldwin USRA Light Mountain in my FEC livery.

More steam! biggrin.gif

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#24 Mike

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Posted 01 July 2004 - 02:56 PM

QUOTE(laming @ Jul 1 2004, 04:38 PM)
For the most part, in 1901-1902 the coal was shipped on the NA using truss rod wooden gondolas.  Would love to have a model of one!  A cattle car exists among the Fowlis collection, but it has alpha channel struggles.

I can rebuild alphas and will fetch the cattle car for a look. Will also keep an eye peeled for some sort of wooden gondola. Better a small stretch with period than none at all, maybe.

QUOTE(laming @ Jul 1 2004, 04:38 PM)
Don't know what all the corporate names were at the time, but until the North Arkansas was well into their expansion, they only connected with the Frisco at Seligman.

That suggests anything the Frisco had may have found its way onto the StL&NA just as you say. That opens things up a bit in the paint department.

QUOTE(laming @ Jul 1 2004, 04:38 PM)
  A dreaded white void to contend with.

Yes, I remember reading that now. I had totally forgotten about it. I understand.

QUOTE(laming @ Jul 1 2004, 04:38 PM)
See the sim load splash screen attached below that includes a view of one their handsome 2-8-0's!!

Wowzers! No worries. What you have is wonderful and you're free to move on to your next heartthrob project. No need gilding the lily, as they used to say.

#25 laming

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Posted 01 July 2004 - 03:05 PM

Response to the M&A hog:

"Wowzers!"

I know... she's a brute, ain't she?

<Dream Mode ON>

I could just HEAR that sucker slammin' her way up Capps Hill just out of Harrison with a new, bellowin' sounds package!! laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

<Dream Mode OFF>

We now return to our regular programming. rolleyes.gif

Andre

#26 SCL

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Posted 01 July 2004 - 03:58 PM

That's looking great Mike! Do you have any other screenshots of your route you could share?

I remember you saying in a previous post that a lot of the terrain is pretty flat and boring, but it would be interesting to see what you have accomplished so far.

Cheers
Ken

#27 zhilton

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Posted 01 July 2004 - 08:40 PM

They ran those monsters into or near Eureka Springs in '43-'44? Now that must have been some sight!!! I can just imagine the "talk" she made as she worked them up and over the grades in that area. It would have gone on for miles. I think I'm fixin' to cry over here. blush.gif Hey Andre, after the railroad was built, what was there primary freight...wood or the water? Also, the only section that is even still in place is the two miles of "main" along with the wye at Eureka Spring.... right? What ever became of the tunnel? Day lighted or does someone have a really neat backyard ornament?

#28 laming

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Posted 01 July 2004 - 09:27 PM

Hi Zack!

A monster indeed! The "40 Class" was generally used to power "mainline" trains, along with the "50 Class" Mikes. Branch line work was handled by the Ten Wheelers and the smaller 30 Class Mikes that were on the M&A's roster. FWIW: The 40 Class were ex-NYC engines (i.e. from "The Big Four" acquistion of the NYC.)

Stack talk? Lands me! I can only imagine the stack talk those engines must have produced on the grades of the North Arkansas... and the reverberation from within those tight hollers! For bridge loading purposes, the M&A had to cut in a helper several cars back from the head end, so you should have gotten a stereophonic effect on some of the curves!

Once built, you could see most anything rolling through, for the North Arkansas was supposed to be a "bridge line" route: A short-cut across the Ozarks.

As for originating online freight: Wood products, (ties, lumber, poles, fence posts, barrel staves, barrels, furniture, etc.), sand, zinc, lead ore, ballast rock, gravel, spring water ("Ozarka" brand, bottled at Eureka Springs), strawberries, blueberries, apples, spinach, etc. Who knows what else???.

Inbound ladings: Just about anything typical of small town/small city America!

I can't imagine over a million tons of freight yearly moving over the M&A during WW2. Mind boggling. To put such a feat into perspective: That huge monster pictured above was only good for 900 or so tons on the plentiful 1.75% grades! In terms of cars, that's a mere 18 cars averaging 50 tons gross!! Can you say endless parades of trains? Little wonder their operating ratio soared off the charts during WW2!

You are correct, the only Ozark portion of line left is the ES&NA tourist operation from Eureka Springs to Junction.

As for the tunnel, it is caved-in on both ends, as I recall hearing.

Have fun!

Andre

#29 zhivago47

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Posted 02 July 2004 - 12:27 AM

Hi Andre, to the original question, my reply is thus:

QUOTE
A. Extend it and update the era to late steam, keeping it reasonably prototypical.


Reasoning is simple. There are enough of the other answered routes out there already, but no really well done late steam routes. I know we had talked about his once upon a time and even then my answer was the same. And I hadn't even seen how well you would do with this route. Although I knew you would, but had not seen it yet.
Andre, I have so many steam engines that I have been downloading for three years now that I need something to run them on, even if they are not prototypical to the NA. To me it doesn't matter. Your route begs steam and to continue the steam. Your brochure of 1944 begs some excellent steam. Now, to avoid the dreaded white void, this is what could be done with the route, and please everyone, don't pooh pooh the idea off hand. You could do what the original route builders were intending to do but never got the chance. And I believe you once said that they intended to go somewhere else rather than Joplin. Why couldn't this be done and just say that you are creating the route as the original owners invisioned it. That would, of course, make it a half non-fictional, half fictional route, but from me you would get nary a cross word about it.
As most of your posters here have stated, they would like to see the later steam era on this route, in whatever form it takes. There are a lot more engines and rolling stock available than you think Andre. I have, as I state earlier, been downloading this stuff for 3 years now. Some of it is not available anymore. I did it because I love steam and wanted at one time to create such a late steam era route, but my skills with the RE were lacking so it never came to fruition. Alas. However, I see in you and this route the ability to make that dream come true for me. So I would certainly welcome a 20's or 30's or even 40's addition to this route and if it takes me to Joplin as actually done, or takes me to some other Missouri city, it matters not to me as long as it is a prototypical route addition with prototypical scenery and prototypical engines and rolling stock. I know you have what it takes to create it. And if you go to some other city rather than Joplin you could still use that scenery, etc. to go to any other Missouri city of that era and not much would be out of place except the city name.
We steamers need something to attach ourselves to. I think your NA is the perfect venue for it. And an update would give us steamers really something to look forward to. And there are more of us out here than you imagine. It just takes the right man at the helm to create the route to run this on. So far, you haven't disappointed, and I doubt you would disappoint in an expansion within the eras I mentioned earlier.

Sorry this got so wordy, but the plain truth is, I like the route, I love the route, and an addition to it would be just as loved by me, and give me a chance to use my later steam engines on the updated route. Yes, I love diesels as well, as long as they are early diesels, but I can run them on a dozen routes. Right now, I can run the late steam on only one route that I can think of at this time and that would be the Ohio Route. I can't think of another that they would fit on. But the NA would be a much better steam route. It would be a natural progression that could be made. I know I want to see it. I think others would as well.

In any case, I do plan to run some later steam on it, if need be, with only slight changes made to the route as it stands. This would of course be on my computer only. But I think I could do it after a fashion.

Anyway, that is my answer, wordy though it was. Food for thought, Andre, but a taste for steam, I hope.

#30 Ranc0r

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Posted 02 July 2004 - 11:21 AM

Somewhere in this thread was some talk of additional rolling stock. I'd like to add a suggestion if I might. How about flat cars hauling barrels? With a barrel stave company and a cooperage, I should think that finished barrels would ship on flats, not just in enclosed boxes. Perhaps a loaded flat like the one Dick did for Canton, with the little mining tub carts, but with plain-ish looking barrels?

Stock cars - YES. The NA screams hog farmers! How about flats with milk cans, partial and fully loaded?

Prototype questions: what is the name of the river that the conbo bridge-trestle crosses between Tunnel and Freeman? Does the valley to the east, south of Junction, have a name?

Is there no mining of any type in these hills?

Curious developing hogger.

#31 Shaa

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Posted 02 July 2004 - 04:51 PM

QUOTE(zhivago47 @ Jul 2 2004, 12:27 AM)


Anyway, that is my answer, wordy though it was

Ill have to agree with Tim on this one...and I love that line of his...wasn't a 100 word limit placed on him or was that just a bet he couldn't do it biggrin.gif Sorry I couldn't resist (having on of THOSE days) Back to the point anyways....I for one don't mind non-prototypical routes I'm more interested in the feel of the route and you nailed it on this one.


Jim


ps: Just read my ramblings and think some sleep might help (doubt it tho wink.gif )

#32 zhivago47

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Posted 02 July 2004 - 09:51 PM

Thanks Jim, and of course you are correct. I can't do it. I never did make a bet with anyone on the 100 word limit. Cyndi likes to harass me about it but at the same time when we correspond via email, she demands much more than 100 words. I guess it depends upon the venue. ohmy.gif cool.gif But, everyone here knows of my problems with short posts. I guess what it boils down to is clarity. Now, people like Kevin can be very clear with a one sentence statement. I cannot. I think it stems from teaching English to a rather bored bunch of students who would rather be elsewhere, but I was determined to make myself as clear as possible in order not to confuse those inclined to be. Some might call it preaching, I prefer to call it clarifying so as not to be misread or misunderstood. Understand?! rolleyes.gif unsure.gif wink.gif

Upon further review, I have concluded that the above statement is totally confusing, even to me. So I take it all back. (Have I hit 100 words yet?) laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

#33 Shaa

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Posted 03 July 2004 - 09:06 AM

I enjoy your long posts so keep em coming. The opportunity was just to good to ignore even tho pick on Tim week is over laugh.gif I know what you mean about Kevin's one sentence posts......one of the scariests days of my life was when I began to understand them......still get nightmares tongue.gif

Jim

#34 zhivago47

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Posted 03 July 2004 - 08:29 PM

Jim, still ROFLMAO over that statement and mainly because that is exactly what transition I went through with Kevin's great posts. I suddenly understood them. And I agree, that was a scary day, but also a day I began to appreciate Kevin much more. And that is basically when we became very good friends, as well.

Listen, don't worry about your posts about my 100 word limit. I thought that it was very amusing at the time and still do. Doesn't bother me any more than the posts to Kevin about his opposite "problem".

Actually Jim, you are a very amusing person and I thoroughly enjoy your posts, and I just love that great Avatar you have. So, you have my permission to thoroughly harass me and make me laugh as well.

#35 zhivago47

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Posted 03 July 2004 - 08:42 PM

Mike, do you have enough of the Key West route completed that it would be possible to download it and run it? And if not, then do you think it is something that you will be completing anywhere in the near future? I, for one, would love to see its completion.
If you have intentions of completing it at some point in time (and I am sure you do or you wouldn't be creating it at all......a stupid statement on my part now that I think upon it) how about some other screenshots of it. And if you would rather not take up space here in Andre's VScale then perhaps in the screenshots area of this forum.

One last thing. I have not had a chance to go through all of the disks upon disks I have of rolling stock from the last three years of downloading MSTS stock, but I am almost sure that there are other engines that were created for this time frame (and I am not speaking of narrow gauge here either). Am I incorrect as you know, or would you know the answer to that? It seems to me that there are. It is going to take some time to get to this and since many of these things are not easily recognizable from their file names, it means going through every single file to see if it is a steam engine or not. Just thought you might have some idea, being a steam engine fancier as I am. Finally, how out of place would some British steam engines look on this or your route? Just curious.
Thanks!

#36 Mike

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Posted 04 July 2004 - 06:40 AM

I appreciate your interest in what I'm doing on the Overseas Railroad, Tim. I'm afraid it's not possible to provide a partial route but I will shoot some additional screenshots for posting at some point.

I've restricted my search for both rolling stock and locos to the late 1800s, early 1900s. Nels Anderson has a good archive and an excellent search engine if used creatively. NG fans are those most interested in this period so many of the wonderful things available just won't work.

Rather than trying to open and examine all your cryptically named files, may I suggest you use Nels' search function, then match the filenames it coughs up with your own archive? That said, I think my searches over the past week or so was a thorough one and except for what I have repainted, I came up empty handed. I think the Andre team did a good job of finding what's out there for a 1905 full-scale and incomplete spur connected only to a young but growing Frisco.

It may not be generally known but in my quick research of Frisco history (trying to see what other rolling stock may have appeared on the StL&NA), I learned Frisco bought and managed Eureka Springs' Crescent Hotel for a short period as the StL&N shuttled people to Eureka Springs in search of the alleged "healing" spring water.

As the tourists learned there was no "healing" in the water and stopped coming from the Seligman connection, Frisco sold the Crescent.

#37 niknak

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Posted 04 July 2004 - 01:08 PM

Regarding extra rolling stock for either Andre's existing route or Mike's proposed new route - There's a circa 1860 boxcar on train-sim.com. File ref is adamsbox.zip. Any good?

Regards, Nick (UK)

#38 Shaa

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Posted 04 July 2004 - 02:59 PM

Since were talking of stuff available for that era......my knowledge of what was available is limited. What engines would be around at the turn of the century? Jessica's a 4-6-0 I think? Also was wondering what an actual coal car (not tender) would be like. Was only thinking of possible activities for delivering coal to different locations after it was brought to area on Frisco line. And yes I know ole` Jess is a woodburner but I'm gonna dig thru my old files and see if I can find a coal tender that is similar. Of course could always have a log car deliver wood to the different locations. Think I've rambled enough now so I'll be goin' tongue.gif


Jim

#39 Mike

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Posted 04 July 2004 - 06:59 PM

In truth Jim, the Jessica running the StL&NA rails should have coal in her tender but the John Fowlis model is cast with wood in her belly. Applying a coal texture instead (which I have) doesn't work because it merely wraps around the shape of the wood and looks unrealistic. wink.gif

Unless and until John makes the necessary changes (or releases the 3D model file for others to tinker with), Jessica burns wood, I'm afraid.

#40 zhivago47

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Posted 04 July 2004 - 08:06 PM

Mike, while I certainly agree that Train Sim has a lot of files, there are many, and I know this to be fact because some of the ones that I got there back almost three years ago are now no longer there, including some I did myself and uploaded there. So, I do think there are some that were either deleted, lost or mislaid. The site went down once a few years back and some of these might have slipped between the crack. I specifically remember having some western turn of the century locomotives at one point. Now, whether I still do or can find them is another question. I agree that there are no more at this time at TS, as I have also done a thorough search, but I am almost sure there was a western railroad engine or two that were vintage, 1880 or so. Perhaps a bit early for Andre's route but still not totally unusable, although perhaps unprototypical. It is a shame that no one is doing these engines anymore for I think there is a great need for more of them to be made available.

In any event thank you for the reply. Of course, I don't think it is outside the realm of possiblity to update Andre's route to a later period of time where we could use the great Light Mtn's and other engines that were created by Train Artisans and others. I do believe if one were to search for some buildings from this era and then say trade them out for what is in the route already, one could reasonably switch the route over to a later era. Perhaps not prototypical in the sense of the route size but certainly something that would keep me happy on my own computer for some time to come.

Anyway, again, thank you for the comeback.