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#1 Frascati

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Posted 22 June 2007 - 04:33 AM

Hi

I was wondering how prototypically representative the rolling stock is of that being run on the A&O. Certainly quality wise the stock provided is a perfect compliment to Gaetans superb locos. And the types seem right for the times...

I guess what prompted the question is the lack of A&M boxcars... This leads me to the preponderance of BN,KCS,SLSF & RI stock (almost forgot...CN boxcars).

So the question is... was this the case or should I go looking for A&M (or other RR's) repaints in order to be more (anal)... er that is ... prototypical?

#2 zhilton

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Posted 22 June 2007 - 08:11 AM

A&M didn't start to paint their own equipment until the mid-'90s. I want to say it was about '94 or '95 when they replaced their ore jennies that were in sand service with some ex-SP and ex-SOU ore cars. They now have large ore cars, boxcars, covered hoppers and tank cars painted white for CO2 service. Or at least that is what they had a year or two ago the last time I was in the Springdale area. For what it's worth, the little ore jennies they used to have for sand service out of Van Buren were friction journal equipped and said "Big Red Line" on their sides with only "AM" for reporting marks. When they used to cross the UP/A&M diamond at Van Buren it sounded like a machine gun going off. I miss those days from time to time. sad.gif

#3 laming

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Posted 22 June 2007 - 02:39 PM

As Zack pointed out, the A&M didn't start painting their own equipment en masse until after the era depicted by the A&O Sub.

If you want to be "correct" smile.gif yet still enlarge the rollingstock fleet, then about the only thing necessary is to stick with stock appropriate for the mid-late 80s, with a midwestern emphasis. That will look "right".

Keep on having fun!

Andre

#4 Frascati

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Posted 23 June 2007 - 01:33 AM

Thanks for the replies...

I'm sorry to do this, but could someone enlighten this poor Brit as to what constitutes a 1980's Mid-Western Railroad? My knowledge of the US is minimal (California... that's on the coast isn't it?)

Add to that railroads, both current and defunct... takeovers... second hand stock in its original paint... distances that it's hard for me to comprehend... ( Brit's think 10 miles drive to a restaurant is a 'long' way... No place in the UK is more than 50 miles from the sea... )

So would any of the following be appropriate? Would any of these find there way and be commonly seen in Arkansas...

C&NW, MILW, DT&I, WC, NKP, TOE, ADN, SOU, DRGW, SSW, ASAB, ACl, GMO, ICG, SOO

Thanks for your patience, comments appreciated

#5 joebandit

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Posted 23 June 2007 - 02:26 AM

To make it easy.Here in the US you can find rolling stock from any RailRoad on any other Railroad including those from our Northern neighbors in Canada and our Southern Neighbors in Mexico. This has been true for a very long time.

The BNSF Phoenix Line is near me, I have seen CSX,UP<NS, CN,CP and a lot of leasing lines here.The UP also has a presence here and the same is true of them.

I have observed the crews doing local switching or shunting as it is called in your neck of the world, with leased power.

Example: NREX GP-38 doing the local work.

#6 Frascati

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Posted 23 June 2007 - 06:07 AM

I assume we are talking mainly about boxcars here... Can't be much of a percentage in toting gondolas of scrap over long distances... and the local gravel & lime industies would use A&M stock... tank cars are pretty anonymous anywhere...

Two questions more though ... The local chicken industry adds up to grain in and chickens out (at least to me). Would grain be sourced locally or out of state... and where would the reefers for the slaughtered chickens be sourced from?

Thanks for bearing with me...






#7 joebandit

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Posted 23 June 2007 - 06:23 AM

Andre will have to answer about the chickens, I have not seen live chickens transported in a very long time. Cars in the US move all over pretty much. Next time I see a Gondola, I will se what it is and what road it belongs to. I have seen quite a few different things being hauled in Gondolas.

#8 dcarleton

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Posted 23 June 2007 - 07:22 AM

QUOTE(Frascati @ Jun 23 2007, 8:48 AM) View Post

I assume we are talking mainly about boxcars here...
grain in and chickens out


Actually, that would be covered hoppers of grain in and reefers full of frozen chickens out. The grain comes from the midwest.

Sometimes the safest choices of cars are Railbox for box cars, Railgon for gondolas, and UTLX or GATX etc. for tank cars, because these are lease fleets that might be found anywhere. There are some very good models of freight cars that should be applicable for some of what you're looking for at Nickel Belt Rail Models.



#9 laming

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Posted 23 June 2007 - 07:54 AM

Hi Frascati:

Didn't realize you were overseas. My apologies for letting my land-locked US mentality to take over.

Your list of railroads would be good. Though just about any car can be seen at any place here in the US, there will be a bit of a general rule, insofar as connection roads and their ancestry. I have to leave here shortly, but when I return, I will elaborate.

As for grain in/chickens out. Typically, rails only bring in the raw materials needed to make the chicken feed. (Soy meal, corn, feed additives.) Trucks generally handle the processed chickens to their distribution centers for retail consumption. It is not uncommon for a truck load of iced or frozen chickens to travel from, say Waldron, Arkansas, to the west coast, a distance of some 1500 miles.

As I said, I must leave here in a moment... will return later tonight to check in on this thread and pontificate further. biggrin.gif

Andre

#10 sstyrnol

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Posted 23 June 2007 - 12:50 PM

Not directly related, but in University, we once made an excursion to the freight area of Frankfurt Int'l airport. You wouldn't believe what is transported by airplane these days. We saw boxes with racing horse, one Maserati (expensive Italian sports car) on a pallet, completely covered by wood boards for protection, and next to a container of freshly cut flowers........ pallets and pallets with boxes full of freshly hatched live chicken fledglings! The girls found the mass of yellow fur-balls cute, I was just wondering where the sense is in sending chicks around the world like that...

#11 sstyrnol

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Posted 23 June 2007 - 12:52 PM

On another note, maybe it would be worthwhile to assemble a list of industries on a route with loads of switching possibilities like the A&O and what kinds of freight they receive or generate and in which frequencies to have a basis for making activity creation easier for those not familiar with the area! huh.gif Just a suggestion! smile.gif

#12 laming

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Posted 23 June 2007 - 06:18 PM

Okay... I'm back!

Wow, today was like a zoo... 'cause that's where we went! Took the 7 year old grand daughter to the Tulsa Zoo!

Anyhoo... Frascati asked about "typical" cars to be seen on the A&O Sub during its target era of the late 80s.

A&M (A&O Sub) During The Late 80s:

First, bear in mind that TYPICALLY a railroad's primary connections will be the most heavily evidenced rolling stock. That is, PROVIDED the home road has a modicum of rolling stock itself, which was the case in the late 80s for the A&M.

The A&M's primary connections during the late 80s were:

BN at Monett, Missouri
UP at Van Buren, Arkansas and Ft. Smith, Arkansas.
KCS at Ft. Smith, Arkansas

Now, staying within the supplied cars for the A&O Sub, you see the BN and KCS represented... but no UP. Why? Simple: The A&O Sub was created/released during UP's absurd license years, and I did NOT want to encumber the meager profits from MSTS sales with UP commissions and such. (The UP has since relaxed its stance.)

The CN cars were included with the A&O Sub because they were available for photos, and therefore I shot them and sent them to Gaetan. Same with almost all of the the other cars: Locally obtained textures.

That explains the supplied cars. Now, what about those that want to add more to the rolling stock that are plausible for the era/region?

Alright, let's look at each primary road, and extropolate from there:

First, there's the most important connection the A&M had during the late 80s: The BN.

During the late 80s in the NW Ark region, cars from the BN could be found still wearing paint for some of the absorbed roads of the BN. In order of common appearance, you could see cars (primarily grain hoppers) for the:

Frisco
Great Northern
Northern Pacific

SOMETIMES, you could see a CB&Q car. I don't ever recall seeing SP&S cars.

Next we'll look at the UP. By the late 80s, the most notable UP assimilation was the Missouri Pacific. I can't recall when the Katy was taken over. Nor can I recall when the CNW became all yellow. So, sticking with what I know, it would be plausible to have Missouri Pacific cars in several flavors running about on the A&M during the late 80s. I'm sure if I would pull out my A&M slides and video tapes, Mopac cars will be seen in the backgrounds.

Lastly, we'll look at the KCS. The KCS was kind of its own thing then. Therefore, there weren't any assimilated roads, so it was typical to see KCS cars from the KCS. There were also TOE cars that came from the D&E/TOE connection at DeQueen, Arkansas.

In addition to the above, during that time there were scads of second-hand cars running about purchased from the Rock Island demise. These typically carried reporting marks for their new owners, but it wouldn't be impossible to see straight Rock Island, reporting marks and all.

The grain flowing into the NW Arkansas A&M region during the 80s came primarily from the BN connection at Monett. (200 car trains were common on the nightly Monett Turn.) That so, the cars used in the supply line were typically roads of the grain belt, that is, the mid and upper midwest.

Let's look again at Frascati's list of lower/mid/upper mid west roads:

C&NW, MILW, DT&I, WC, NKP, TOE, ADN, SOU, DRGW, SSW, ASAB, ACl, GMO, ICG, SOO

Now I'll try to share some logic for the above knowing the traffic patterns of the time.

For grain hoppers, in addition to the roads that I discussed above, you could lift the following from Frascati's list and often see:

C&NW, MILW, SOO

In addition, you can throw in a few UP and Mopac.

For boxcars, you could typically see:

BN, KCS, UP, MP, C&NW, TOE (lumber/paper products)

Gons? Can't recall specifics... gons are usually so beat up they all kind of blend together.

Woodchip cars were about as depicted with the stock supplied with the A&O Sub : BN and KCS.

Tanks/chem cars: Again, non-descript. Run-what-cha'-brung appropriate for era.

Bulkhead flats were still king in the late 80s, as the centerbeam cars had not gained their foothold yet.

In addition to ALL of the above, there were free-running car fleets that could be seen as well. That would be such things as Railbox, Railgon, etc. I seem to recall seeing "Solid Gold" reefer cars in Springdale while aboard the Ft. Smith Turn.

Well, there you have it, the basics. Now you can take it from here!

Have fun!

Andre


#13 laming

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Posted 23 June 2007 - 06:21 PM

A follow up...

Below you'll see an example of the MP evidenced during that era by this UP train pounding the diamond at Van Buren as I wait with the northbound Ft. Smith Turn...

Attached Files



#14 laming

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Posted 23 June 2007 - 06:23 PM

And another...

(Boy... I used to enjoy taking train pics on ocassion. Lost interest as the "modern era" gained more toe-hold. Haven't really "rail fanned" since mid-90s. BORRRRing.)

Attached Files



#15 august1929

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Posted 23 June 2007 - 11:35 PM

Andre, thanks for that valuable info. As another Brit (only 10 miles from the sea - or 55 miles if I go the other way biggrin.gif ) I too often ponder the reality of some of my stock combinations - I seem to spend more and more time at Railpictures etc. trying to make sure I have it more or less right.

Your info now stored in my A&M Documents folder (along with some of the photos you have posted from time to time).

Rod

#16 Frascati

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Posted 24 June 2007 - 03:05 AM

Andre, thank you so much for your long and detailed response. Great information which is exactly what I was looking for. Like August1929 I instantly printed and filed the response...

This really is the friendliest and most helpful of forums...

#17 laming

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Posted 24 June 2007 - 08:14 AM

You're welcome Rod and Fras.

One thing I'm sure you realize, but I forgot to mention: Cars lettered for BN were the predominate road seen.

See you!

Andre

#18 boundy

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Posted 25 June 2007 - 12:05 AM

Hi Andre; I doubt if this turns you on but saw a news piece about Tyson selling their used or freash chicken oil to a large refinery in Texas so I would say we may be having tankers out as well. Think about getting a oil change and saying you want two qts of leg oild and three of breast.

#19 Frascati

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Posted 25 June 2007 - 05:24 AM

Just one more question...

What's being carried in the tank cars bound for the feed additive tracks?

#20 S. Weaver

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Posted 26 June 2007 - 05:22 PM

QUOTE(Frascati @ Jun 25 2007, 7:05 AM) View Post

Just one more question...

What's being carried in the tank cars bound for the feed additive tracks?


Hmm ... I'd have to think about that. If it were for cattle or horses, it would be molasses, but chickens ... I don't know. I'm seeing a Tyson grower tomorrow evening. I'll ask him.